Starcraft Starcraft 18.55-3 - Jayco design team blunder - once a happy Jayco customer

[ACTraveller]

Hi forum members - we had intended trading our Expanda 14.44-3 for a 20ft StarCraft - but opted for an 18.55-3. this gave us all we need but a warning for smaller Expanda owners - with this move up in size we had to get 12 pin plug with circuit breakers and extra live wire direct from battery, plus Andersen plug for the car and van for the Electronic Stability Control, plus buy and instal Hayman Reese Weight Distribution System - setting us back almost an extra $2000.

To make matters worse Jayco had mounted the jockey wheel clamp on the outside of the drawer bar so it can't be used when the WDS is engaged - meaning we have to get a clamp welded to the inside of the drawer bar – we opted to buy a TrailAMate (another $310) hydraulic jack to double as an easy to use jack and jockey wheel. Once the WDS is disengaged we can use the normal jockey wheel on the outside clamp.
It is beyond our strength to fully engage the WDS without jacking up the van first to take the tension off the WDS bars – which can only be done with an inside mounted clamp.

Next we noticed the rear bumper was touching the van - on inspection underneath the placement of the box section that the bumper bolts into has been set too far to the front of the van so the bumper can't be adjusted back - we will leave that to Jayco to sort out - I will keep you posted on that one.

Another very BIG beware – the new Jaycos have bigger drawbars that measure 125mm X 50mm, which means our front mounted Fiamma bike racks and bolt-on Alko swivel clamp don't fit - we had to have a new plate welded to the Alko swivel with two steel strips for the inside of the drawer bar for through bolts as you can't buy 125mm U Bolts – fortunately this was only $20.

To top it off we have far less useable storage than our Expanda 14.44-3 (2010 model) and although we travel very light a lot of stuff had to be left at home.

I think the good lady cried and wished we had stuck with our Expanda - we had 33 safe and trouble free trips including up through far western Queensland.

Hope things improve - we have yet to make the first shakedown trip as all this new set-up has not only cost $'s but taken time - something the good sales staff didn't even hint at.

ACTraveller

 

[Smirke]

Hi forum members - we had intended trading our Expanda 14.44-3 for a 20ft StarCraft - but opted for an 18.55-3. this gave us all we need but a warning for smaller Expanda owners - with this move up in size we had to get 12 pin plug with circuit breakers and extra live wire direct from battery, plus Andersen plug for the car and van for the Electronic Stability Control, plus buy and instal Hayman Reese Weight Distribution System - setting us back almost an extra $2000.

To make matters worse Jayco had mounted the jockey wheel clamp on the outside of the drawer bar so it can't be used when the WDS is engaged - meaning we have to get a clamp welded to the inside of the drawer bar – we opted to buy a TrailAMate (another $310) hydraulic jack to double as an easy to use jack and jockey wheel. Once the WDS is disengaged we can use the normal jockey wheel on the outside clamp.
It is beyond our strength to fully engage the WDS without jacking up the van first to take the tension off the WDS bars – which can only be done with an inside mounted clamp.

Next we noticed the rear bumper was touching the van - on inspection underneath the placement of the box section that the bumper bolts into has been set too far to the front of the van so the bumper can't be adjusted back - we will leave that to Jayco to sort out - I will keep you posted on that one.

Another very BIG beware – the new Jaycos have bigger drawbars that measure 125mm X 50mm, which means our front mounted Fiamma bike racks and bolt-on Alko swivel clamp don't fit - we had to have a new plate welded to the Alko swivel with two steel strips for the inside of the drawer bar for through bolts as you can't buy 125mm U Bolts – fortunately this was only $20.

To top it off we have far less useable storage than our Expanda 14.44-3 (2010 model) and although we travel very light a lot of stuff had to be left at home.

I think the good lady cried and wished we had stuck with our Expanda - we had 33 safe and trouble free trips including up through far western Queensland.

Hope things improve - we have yet to make the first shakedown trip as all this new set-up has not only cost $'s but taken time - something the good sales staff didn't even hint at.

ACTraveller

That doesn't sound too good for you. Hopefully things will improve from now. We have also gone a new jayco (expanda though), can I ask, did jayco tell you that you needed the Anderson plug for the ESC? Reason I ask, is that we also had to change from a 7pin to a 12 pin plug on the car, but we were told by our dealer that that was all we needed to do. (We leave to drive to melbourne in 13 days to pick up our van, and don't want any nasty surprises when we get there).

 

[yabbietol]

Hi forum members - we had intended trading our Expanda 14.44-3 for a 20ft StarCraft - but opted for an 18.55-3. this gave us all we need but a warning for smaller Expanda owners - with this move up in size we had to get 12 pin plug with circuit breakers and extra live wire direct from battery, plus Andersen plug for the car and van for the Electronic Stability Control, plus buy and instal Hayman Reese Weight Distribution System - setting us back almost an extra $2000.

To make matters worse Jayco had mounted the jockey wheel clamp on the outside of the drawer bar so it can't be used when the WDS is engaged - meaning we have to get a clamp welded to the inside of the drawer bar – we opted to buy a TrailAMate (another $310) hydraulic jack to double as an easy to use jack and jockey wheel. Once the WDS is disengaged we can use the normal jockey wheel on the outside clamp.
It is beyond our strength to fully engage the WDS without jacking up the van first to take the tension off the WDS bars – which can only be done with an inside mounted clamp.

Next we noticed the rear bumper was touching the van - on inspection underneath the placement of the box section that the bumper bolts into has been set too far to the front of the van so the bumper can't be adjusted back - we will leave that to Jayco to sort out - I will keep you posted on that one.

Another very BIG beware – the new Jaycos have bigger drawbars that measure 125mm X 50mm, which means our front mounted Fiamma bike racks and bolt-on Alko swivel clamp don't fit - we had to have a new plate welded to the Alko swivel with two steel strips for the inside of the drawer bar for through bolts as you can't buy 125mm U Bolts – fortunately this was only $20.

To top it off we have far less useable storage than our Expanda 14.44-3 (2010 model) and although we travel very light a lot of stuff had to be left at home.

I think the good lady cried and wished we had stuck with our Expanda - we had 33 safe and trouble free trips including up through far western Queensland.

Hope things improve - we have yet to make the first shakedown trip as all this new set-up has not only cost $'s but taken time - something the good sales staff didn't even hint at.

ACTraveller

We are hopefully picking up our new 18.55-3 in mid December. My main concern about your post is the problem of the bumper bar touching the caravan. Could you please explain a bit more or better still post a pic as it will help me when I check out my new van at pickup. We are moving up from a very small Avan pop top so we hopefully should be alright with the storage.

 

[ACTraveller]

Jayco Sydney really told us nothing and we only found all of this out when the van failed for rego 3 times in the ACT - unbalanced braking - The ACT Govt (equivalent of the NSW RMS) put the van over rollers to test brakes - that really tests them and finds any flaws - most dealers do not use a Govt rego station but use a licensed testing station which means easy registration but no roller testing.

Fortunately Jayco Canberra, not where we bought the van, adjusted the brakes and told us that we needed that Anderson plug so the ESC is always on when connected to the vehicle, even when stopped for lunch - and allows you to unplug the ESC when going over very rough roads at lower speeds (important for Outback models) - as the ESC will be applying brakes all the time on rough roads. The fitting of the additional wiring and Anderson plug by Jayco Canberra was $117 - the cheapest thing we had to do.

We also had a very major problem with the 12 pin plug as the auto electrician , NOT JAYCO, wired it incorrectly as they had a poor understanding of the ALKO ESC technology. The 12 pin plug was useless as they had not put in heavy wiring to two of the additional 5 plugs for the large power draw to the fridge - nor had they put the circuit breaker and additional live wire direct to the battery terminal for the heavy power draw. Our tip is take the cover off your 12 pin plug and off the 12 pin socket and make sure the colours match up - and check the ALCO ESC wiring diagram in their little manual that comes with a new van. We hopeyou don't have the problems we had as it takes the shine right off getting a new van.
ACTraveller

 

[ACTraveller]

PS - we were told the reason why we should keep the ESC always on during the day as we move from one site to the next - as each time you turn the tow vehicle motor on and off the ESC has to re-boot - which can cause issues

 

[Crusty181]

That doesn't sound too good for you. Hopefully things will improve from now. We have also gone a new jayco (expanda though), can I ask, did jayco tell you that you needed the Anderson plug for the ESC? Reason I ask, is that we also had to change from a 7pin to a 12 pin plug on the car, but we were told by our dealer that that was all we needed to do. (We leave to drive to melbourne in 13 days to pick up our van, and don't want any nasty surprises when we get there).

You don't need an Anderson plug for the ESC. I picked up my van a fortnight ago, and the although ALKO recommend a dedicated hotwire, Jayco have connected it via the vans general hotwire ... The heavy pins in 12 pin plug is just for the heavier draw on the fridge, nothing else is connected via the 12 pin plugs' larger pins.

I was "learned" that once the ESC has found itself on the first connect, and powered up once, you only need to check the green lights each time you reconnect, and thats what seems to happen each time I put the van on the car so far

 

[ACTraveller]

Here are some bumper pics - you can see that the bumper bar is touching the van at the rear lights plastic section - it will rub even on highway journeys cracking the plastic or causing heavy abrasion at that point. It is pretty useless as a bumper bar to protect your rear section - as it has already "bumped" When we looked underneath the bumper bar fits into a box section and is held in place with two bolts. The bumper bar has been extended as far as possible and will need some modification to fix the problem.

We will be pretty insistent with Jayco to ensure this is fixed as it is either a design problem or a manufacture problem - our guess is that the positioning of the welded box section is for a 16 foot van and they just forgot to move it back when building the 18 foot model - or its is a 16 foot chassis modified for a 18 foot model.

Just to add a bit more on the ESC for Smirke - there are very few accredited ALKO ASC installers - the service supervisor at Canberra is one and he told us that after about 15,000 re-boots or a reboot failure the whole unIt has to be re-programmed. My guess is not many people will reach that 15,000 threshold but if you have a re-boot failure the re-programming may be problematic.

 

[ACTraveller]

[You don't need an Anderson plug for the ESC. I picked up my van a fortnight ago, and the although ALKO recommend a dedicated hotwire, Jayco have connected it via the vans general hotwire ... The heavy pins in 12 pin plug is just for the heavier draw on the fridge, nothing else is connected via the 12 pin plugs' larger pins.[/QUOTE]

Smirke - each his own on this - there is a lot written on the various forums on this subject - but we took the advice of the accredited ALKO ESC installer and fitted the Anderson plug.

 

[ACTraveller]

[You don't need an Anderson plug for the ESC. I picked up my van a fortnight ago, and the although ALKO recommend a dedicated hotwire, Jayco have connected it via the vans general hotwire ... The heavy pins in 12 pin plug is just for the heavier draw on the fridge, nothing else is connected via the 12 pin plugs' larger pins.

Smirke - each his own on this - there is a lot written on the various forums on this subject - but we took the advice of the accredited ALKO ESC installer and fitted the Anderson plug.[/QUOTE]

PS there should be two of your 12 pin plug heavy gauge connectors used - a heavy duty pink wire on connector 9 for the fridge and a second white wire for an earth on connector 10 - This is the standard Jayco pin wiring for new vans- if you only have one wire on your tow vehicle I suggest you check the plug on your van and the pin on your vehicle to ensure you have matching wires.

 

[MichaelB]

So I presume the main reason for using an Anderson plug arrangement for the ESC is to allow for easy isolation of the system in off road type conditions? Or is there another way to turn it off if required?

 

[yabbietol]

Here are some bumper pics - you can see that the bumper bar is touching the van at the rear lights plastic section - it will rub even on highway journeys cracking the plastic or causing heavy abrasion at that point. It is pretty useless as a bumper bar to protect your rear section - as it has already "bumped" When we looked underneath the bumper bar fits into a box section and is held in place with two bolts. The bumper bar has been extended as far as possible and will need some modification to fix the problem.

We will be pretty insistent with Jayco to ensure this is fixed as it is either a design problem or a manufacture problem - our guess is that the positioning of the welded box section is for a 16 foot van and they just forgot to move it back when building the 18 foot model - or its is a 16 foot chassis modified for a 18 foot model.

Just to add a bit more on the ESC for Smirke - there are very few accredited ALKO ASC installers - the service supervisor at Canberra is one and he told us that after about 15,000 re-boots or a reboot failure the whole unIt has to be re-programmed. My guess is not many people will reach that 15,000 threshold but if you have a re-boot failure the re-programming may be problematic.

Thanks for the great pics they help a lot.
I am getting my van from Jayco Sydney as I bought it at the Penrith Caravan Show.
I probably will get it serviced in Queanbeyan as I live in Queanbeyan, it is good to hear nice things about their service people.

PS I plan to get Jayco Sydney convert my 7 Pin plug to 12 Pin at van pick up it will cost $230, not cheap, but will prevent blame shifting.
PSS I already have an Anderson Plug on my car which runs off my second battery.

 

[ACTraveller]

So I presume the main reason for using an Anderson plug arrangement for the ESC is to allow for easy isolation of the system in off road type conditions? Or is there another way to turn it off if required?

You are 100% correct - and that's what Jayco told us, which is why they fitted the plug for us

 

[ACTraveller]

You are 100% correct - and that's what Jayco told us, which is why they fitted the plug for us

PPS - Without an Anderson plug there is no way to isolate the ESC

 

[Crusty181]

@ACTraveller We sold our beloved 16.49.1OB, and upgraded to the 20.63.1OB. I understand your disappointment and frustration on the upgrade. I put way too much time into the upgrade, and I also regretted the upgrade due to issues with the purchasing process, the lack of consultation, the curve balls and that feeling that " ... this just isn't my van". Like we'd sold our good friend for a cold stranger.

Hang in there, Im slowly starting to come around. The frustrations are starting to fade, and after a couple of outings and some personal touches, I starting to find my new van is not such a bad upgrade. I found our maiden voyage broke the ice, and I can now see the potential. There still some issue to iron out, and we will be it in for 5 weeks over xmas, and Im sure we'll come home happier than when we left.

 

[Crusty181]

You are 100% correct - and that's what Jayco told us, which is why they fitted the plug for us

Interesting. Your dealer seems to be ahead of the rest on the disconnection issues of the ESC. I hadn't thought of that (although off road in a bit off in the future for us), and clearly my dealer has no clue. But Im hoping that "off road" for the mammoth 20.63.1 probably isn't the sort of off road that will bother the ESC. Anywhere that I tow a 3t van that will activate the ESC, I probably should be dragging it in there in the first place, and Im probably not going to get it out anyway.

Did your dealer re-wire the ESC, or did it come like that from the factory

Ive got one Anderson for the fridge, I surely not going to run another for the ESC anyway. If required, I can disconnect it at the circuit breaker I suppose.

 

[MichaelB]

PPS - Without an Anderson plug there is no way to isolate the ESC

Exactly what I thought, yet when I ordered our van - with ESC - and discussed wiring requirements with the salesman at Jayco he was adamant that they only wire them through the 12 pin plug and not via an Anderson.

Since reading more about this on this forum, I can't help but think the salesman I got isn't on top of things. I am quite sure @dagree recently had ESC retro-fitted to his van (at the same dealer) with wiring via an Anderson connection.

Frustrates me when you get misleading advice from those who should be "in the know". My main concern is that I want to able to isolate the system when I so choose, and obviously the Anderson connection is the easiest way to do so!!!

Anyway, I have plenty of time to sort this out given the van won't be here until March, and I am glad you confirmed my thoughts @ACTraveller

 

[ACTraveller]

@ACTraveller We sold our beloved 16.49.1OB, and upgraded to the 20.63.1OB. I understand your disappointment and frustration on the upgrade. I put way too much time into the upgrade, and I also regretted the upgrade due to issues with the purchasing process, the lack of consultation, the curve balls and that feeling that " ... this just isn't my van". Like we'd sold our good friend for a cold stranger.

Hang in there, Im slowly starting to come around. The frustrations are starting to fade, and after a couple of outings and some personal touches, I starting to find my new van is not such a bad upgrade. I found our maiden voyage broke the ice, and I can now see the potential. There still some issue to iron out, and we will be it in for 5 weeks over xmas, and Im sure we'll come home happier than when we left.

Thanks Crustry181 for the encouragement - I am sure you are right - and I like your cold stranger reference, sums it up perfectly. I have a lot of sympathy for people completely new to caravanning who buy a big van first off with no caravanning knowledge - it must be like "living the dream" is actually "living the nightmare" - the sales people are a bit remiss in not outlining some of the things for newbies. When we bought our very first van we did the Tow Ed course - bit pricey but really worth every cent - the trainer set our van up properly, gave us a lot of knowledge and confidence and our caravanning was enjoyable. The two of us can do all the jobs associated with vanning but the lady is better at reversing I have to admit.

 

[yabbietol]

PPS - Without an Anderson plug there is no way to isolate the ESC

There seems to be a bit of difference of opinion when and if ESC should be turned off and I am a bit confused.

I found this on the ALKO web site in the FAQ for ESC
http://www.alkoesc.com.au/escfaq.html#.VHmcOYvvIZY
Q. Is AL-KO ESC suitable for use in rough terrain off road situations?

A. AL-KO ESC should be disconnected for serious off road use as extreme bumps and rough terrain could activate the ESC.
AL-KO ESC is safe to use on unpaved roads.

So my interpretation of ALKO advice from FAQ is it should only be turned off for "serious off road" not unpaved roads.
I guess the "serious off road" is a matter of opinion, it seems like most dirt roads should be OK.
Can anyone confirm if what I think is true?
If I can travel over about 15-20km/hr ESC should be left on if I have to travel slower because of rough surface it should be turned off. The speed is based on when my ESC turns back on in my 4WD.

 

[yabbietol]

More info from ALKO ESC FAQs

Q.What are the requirements for my tow vehicle wiring to allow installation of AL-KO ESC?

A. The tow vehicle which will be used to tow your caravan or trailer fitted with the AL-KO ESC, must have the power supply for the ESC wired directly to the battery and a 30Amp fuse or circuit breaker fitted.
The AL-KO ESC should be connected to the tow vehicle using a standard 12 pin plug or 2 pin connector.
The layout for a 12 pin plug varies between manufacturers so we suggest you contact the manufacturer of your caravan to confirm how your caravan is wired.
For off road use it is recommended that the ESC is connected to the tow vehicle using a 2 pin plug such as a 50AMP connector in order to allow the simple disconnection of the ESC unit for periods of extreme off road driving.
A 2 pin connector can be supplied by AL-KO if required (Part number: 350350).

 

[MichaelB]

More info from ALKO ESC FAQs
Q.What are the requirements for my tow vehicle wiring to allow installation of AL-KO ESC?

A. The tow vehicle which will be used to tow your caravan or trailer fitted with the AL-KO ESC, must have the power supply for the ESC wired directly to the battery and a 30Amp fuse or circuit breaker fitted.
The AL-KO ESC should be connected to the tow vehicle using a standard 12 pin plug or 2 pin connector.
The layout for a 12 pin plug varies between manufacturers so we suggest you contact the manufacturer of your caravan to confirm how your caravan is wired.
For off road use it is recommended that the ESC is connected to the tow vehicle using a 2 pin plug such as a 50AMP connector in order to allow the simple disconnection of the ESC unit for periods of extreme off road driving.
A 2 pin connector can be supplied by AL-KO if required (Part number: 350350).

Yep. Read this too. Exactly my thoughts. And supports the Anderson use!