Electrical New batteries needed... Any tips

[scottbec]

hi all,

We have 2 x 80 Watt BP solar panels (with plasmatronic PL20 controller) and 2 x 120 AMP Fullriver AGM batteries.

We like to do a bit of free camping, but recent free camping trips have been a bit of an issue as the batteries have been running low quite quickly. We mainly only run a 190lt weaco fridge / freezer, with a few led lights at night time. The kids dont demand the tv/dvd, although we do need to charge our iPads and phones off the 12v plugs. the batteries are a few years old (still from previous owner), so I know that I am soon going to be in the market for some new ones.

I just want some thoughts as to whether I should stick with that size battery or go with something else? And are these ebay deals worth looking at?

should I look at going to a ctek charger and maybe another panel on the roof... Noting the extra dollars that will need.

Cheers,

Scott

 

[MichaelB]

Hi @scottbec

I don't profess to be an expert on solar, however I would think 2 x 80 watt panels sounds a little light on from what I have seen used elsewhere?

I work for a battery manufacturer and distributor however, and do know a little about batteries. You mention they are a few years old - how many times they have been cycled, and how far they have been allowed to self-discharge (and how often) will impact longevity. So on the surface, I would say that they may well be nearing the end of their lifespan. As you know with batteries, failure can be progressive or sudden, there is no simple rule.

In terms of what replacement to go for, you will struggle to find a product in the market similar in size that puts out more than 120AH. You can do the maths quite easily based on the appliances/equipment you are using to determine how much use or how long you "should" be getting from 240AH worth of capacity. At the end of the day you have a significant amount of stored capacity!

The Full River brand (not one of mine) is reasonably well respected. There are better and worse products of course. Unfortunately there is little action by regulatory bodies to enforce the accuracy of battery ratings sold in the marketplace, and it is not uncommon for batteries to be rated much higher than their true rating. I would be wary of "no-name" of unfamiliar brands as the likelihood of them conforming to and being testing in accordance with Australian Standards is remote. As such I would question their quality and longevity.

My advice would be to buy a brand with a nationwide warranty and a good network of dealers around the country to support such warranty.

Mike

 

[Ss--ss]

Howdy, I have a full river 120ah battery seems pretty good & has been running for 3 years so far only thing is its very heavy! I also use solar to put some charge into it but every so often I hook up my 7amp CTEK to give it a good charge.

But you say you have a 190l Waeco ! Wow I didn't think you could get them that big.

 

[Crusty181]

Im also on the long list of non experts
Ive had a 120ah Full River for 6 years. It was at the time I purchased it the best option for us. Although there were some claimed better offerings the Full River, as @MichaelB mentioned, had the best and most consistent reviews. And its stood the test of time.

AGM DC batteries should be view as half their rated output in order to maintain a respectable life expectancy. i.e. Your 120ah batteries should not be drawn below 60amps ea. Drawing them down further than 60amp repeatedly will rapidly decrease their function.

Without knowing how much the Waeco draws, I would suspect a fridge that size could be punishing those batteries especially if their getting older and if you camp for any period of time. 2 x 80 watt panels would be struggling to keep up with it. 240amps is a lot of power. 2 x 80 panels is probably light on for 2 x 120ah batteries, if you using a significant amount of their capacity.

I researched the large compatible Waeco fridge as a replacement for the 150/180 size Dometic 3 way in my new van, but the power draw was surprisingly high and made the option not viable for my free camping. I would need to run the genet to help it along

As for the size of the batteries you require, the question is more about how much power you use and how you intent to generate that power. The batteries are more of a buffer to even out the non power generation period i.e. with solar, at night time. You would be better served balancing up that power in/power out equation first. 2 x 120ah DCs is ample if you generating enough power to replace whats taken out, and if you favour the solar I'd up the panels to cope

 

[yabbietol]

hi all,

We have 2 x 80 Watt BP solar panels (with plasmatronic PL20 controller) and 2 x 120 AMP Fullriver AGM batteries.

We like to do a bit of free camping, but recent free camping trips have been a bit of an issue as the batteries have been running low quite quickly. We mainly only run a 190lt weaco fridge / freezer, with a few led lights at night time. The kids dont demand the tv/dvd, although we do need to charge our iPads and phones off the 12v plugs. the batteries are a few years old (still from previous owner), so I know that I am soon going to be in the market for some new ones.

I just want some thoughts as to whether I should stick with that size battery or go with something else? And are these ebay deals worth looking at?

should I look at going to a ctek charger and maybe another panel on the roof... Noting the extra dollars that will need.

Cheers,
Batteries are these days changing in technology very quickly but not as quick as would be nice. It basically boils down to cost vs benefit.

Sealed Lead Acid Deep cycle are the cheapest and generally the best value for your $. Do not use starter car batteries except for low draw applications as they do not like been deeply discharged. Deep cycle lead acid still do not like been deeply discharged, especially below 50% but will tolerate it much better than normal car starter batteries. A good quality 100AH sealed deep cycle battery should set up back less than $200 (such as AC- DELCO).

The next step up is Absorbent Glass Matt (AGM) deep cycle batteries these are better but more expensive. They are of similar weight to normal lead acid, but much better to able withstand vibration (and rough roads). They are probably not worth the extra money, but do give you a more reliable battery.

We then move to the new technologies and the various Lithium batteries which are very good, can withstand much deeper discharge than lead acid, last many more discharge cycles and are about ⅓ the weight. They are really good, but very currently expensive. Unless weight is critical, they are not really yet worth the money. Maybe soon hopefully. We could go on about new technologies for a long time, but it is best summarised as Deep cycle lead acid now and lithium some time in the next few years.

Also I think you are too low on solar input, panels are cheap now and can compensate a lot for smaller batteries, weight wise more panels is a good option.

 

[Drover]

The thing is if you don't keep your batteries on a trickle while it's sitting in the shed they will be stuffed in a short time, otherwise it sounds like they aren't charging best way to check is charge them up and get a load test done, my battery is a marine battery 6 yrs old always on a trickle still working but the next one will be an AGM, I always liked the Marine batteries as they can be used to start the vehicle if need be.

Anyway batteries and solar give me a headache as there are many opinions.
Go to this site, download the article, I have found it to hold a wealth of excellant info on the mystery of green steam......
http://highwaydreams.net/handy-hints-tips/rv-electrics-batteries-solar-power/

 

[yabbietol]

Batteries are these days changing in technology very quickly but not as quick as would be nice. It basically boils down to cost vs benefit.

Sealed Lead Acid Deep cycle are the cheapest and generally the best value for your $. Do not use starter car batteries except for low draw applications as they do not like been deeply discharged. Deep cycle lead acid still do not like been deeply discharged, especially below 50% but will tolerate it much better than normal car starter batteries. A good quality 100AH sealed deep cycle battery should set up back less than $200 (such as AC- DELCO).

The next step up is Absorbent Glass Matt (AGM) deep cycle batteries these are better but more expensive. They are of similar weight to normal lead acid, but much better to able withstand vibration (and rough roads). In my humble opinion they are probably not worth the extra money, but do give you a more reliable battery and some people really like them.

We then move to the new technologies and the various Lithium batteries which are very good, can withstand much deeper discharge than lead acid, last many more discharge cycles and are about ⅓ the weight. They are really good, but very currently expensive. Unless weight is critical, they are not really yet worth the money. Maybe soon hopefully. We could go on about new technologies for a long time, but it is best summarised as Deep cycle lead acid now and lithium some time in the next few years.

Also I think you are too low on solar input, panels are cheap now and can compensate a lot for smaller batteries, weight wise more panels is a good option.[/QUOTE]

Not sure what happen with above post it appeared to work the second time, sorry for the blank post above

 

[MichaelB]

@Drover I agree with you on the maintenance charging, ideally by way of an intelligent type battery charger. From new (battery formation) the widely accepted magical number is 45 days before irreversible damage occurs to a lead acid battery as a result of self discharge. Best practice is to boost batteries at this time to return the OCV to 12.6 volts. Of course this is in a perfect world, and in perfect conditions. The damage done post 45 days won't render the battery useless, but it will degrade it's capacity. It will never operate at 100% capacity again due to the onset of internal degradation.

Marine batteries can come in many forms and use a mix of technologies. You can buy dedicated starting marine batteries, dual purpose starting/cycling and dedicated cycling in gel VRLA, AGM VRLA, calcium/calcium lead acid or lead antimony. All could start something if desperate with varying degrees of success and longevity, however I suspect you are referring to a dual purpose or hybrid type calcium/calcium battery. These are the most popular by far.

However - they vent or gas when being charged. So they should not be fitted internally in a van. Of course many people do, but you shouldn't. VRLA either AGM or Gel should be used.

So, @yabbietol while you can get the lead acid variant ( flooded lead antimony types are old tech but have super thick plates for cycling use) relatively cheaply, the AGM should be the one used if the battery is located inside the vans main compartment.

 

[Drover]

The main thing is you need to actually know how much power you use, a stocktake needs to be done before blowing heaps of $$$ on panels and batteries for unwanted power, which many do I believe, some for keeping up with the Jones's and other because the salesman said they needed them.

Makes me wonder how 40 yrs ago I managed out bush with esky, matches and tilly lamp, a little tranny if you could get a signal, then in 1978 I got an Engel, (which is still running) and the saga with batteries began and still continues so I'm well versed in the fun of batteries for camping and on the road. The can also scare the daylights out of you when they blow.

 

[MichaelB]

Absolutely right on all counts @Drover You have to understand your requirements before spending the $$$. And it is not hard to work out.

And yep- when they explode it's not pleasant!!! I've seen them come through bonnets before, or at least I've seen the "after" photos!!

 

[yabbietol]

@Drover I agree with you on the maintenance charging, ideally by way of an intelligent type battery charger. From new (battery formation) the widely accepted magical number is 45 days before irreversible damage occurs to a lead acid battery as a result of self discharge. Best practice is to boost batteries at this time to return the OCV to 12.6 volts. Of course this is in a perfect world, and in perfect conditions. The damage done post 45 days won't render the battery useless, but it will degrade it's capacity. It will never operate at 100% capacity again due to the onset of internal degradation.

Marine batteries can come in many forms and use a mix of technologies. You can buy dedicated starting marine batteries, dual purpose starting/cycling and dedicated cycling in gel VRLA, AGM VRLA, calcium/calcium lead acid or lead antimony. All could start something if desperate with varying degrees of success and longevity, however I suspect you are referring to a dual purpose or hybrid type calcium/calcium battery. These are the most popular by far.

However - they vent or gas when being charged. So they should not be fitted internally in a van. Of course many people do, but you shouldn't. VRLA either AGM or Gel should be used.

So, @yabbietol while you can get the lead acid variant ( flooded lead antimony types are old tech but have super thick plates for cycling use) relatively cheaply, the AGM should be the one used if the battery is located inside the vans main compartment.

Your comments about the danger of lead acid battery off gassing surprise me, because I though caravan batteries had to have adequate ventilation to prevent hydrogen build up while charging. My Avan which I sold in June had a dedicated vent for the battery. It also had warning in the manual about not blocking that particular vent.
I am yet to pick up my Jayco, but I would be surprised if they did not have adequate ventilation of excess hydrogen for their charging batteries. If the batteries supplied as standard by Jayco are lead acid deep cycle they should come with adequate ventilation?

 

[yabbietol]

Absolutely right on all counts @Drover You have to understand your requirements before spending the $$$. And it is not hard to work out.

And yep- when they explode it's not pleasant!!! I've seen them come through bonnets before, or at least I've seen the "after" photos!!

Exploding (usually a hydrogen fire/explosion) batteries lead acid (and AGM) are a real hazard especially in high vibration environments, under charge with poor ventilation. However, they are not as "exciting" as lithium batteries shorting out and catching fire, really a slow explosion. Lithium batteries in cargo catching fire bought down a commercial airliner in Dubai a couple of years back, they also have caught fire on aircraft and caused emergency landings. If they become common in vans we may see some really scary van fires down the track.

 

[scottbec]

Wow - thanks for the great replies @Drover @MichaelB @yabbietol @Crusty181 and @Ss--ss

I will have to read through it all tonight, but it looks like you are all a wealth of knowledge on this, compared to me...
Cheers again.
Scott

 

[scottbec]

Howdy, I have a full river 120ah battery seems pretty good & has been running for 3 years so far only thing is its very heavy! I also use solar to put some charge into it but every so often I hook up my 7amp CTEK to give it a good charge.

But you say you have a 190l Waeco ! Wow I didn't think you could get them that big.

yep apparently those 190l Waeco's are quite rare - but they keep my fish, chips and beer cold!!

 

[Crusty181]

............ but they keep my fish, chips and beer cold!!

and thats what its all about !!!!!

 

[Colsar]

well all of the above.

i had a avan, with a pipe and vent from the battery box, now have the expanda, and fitted a agm battery under the seat as recommend by page bros seaford. i leave the van plugged in while at home to keep it charged via the setec.

just a thought, but the fridge would most likely pull a fair bit out of your batteries, if you free camp can you run ur fridge on gas ?

 

[Crusty181]

I managed out bush with esky, matches and tilly lamp, a little tranny ......... They can also scare the daylights out of you.

Not only the little Trannys ... the big Trannys are much more frightening.

I just declared this post rated "R", and issued you with a yellow card. Your on the bench for 30 min.

 

[Drover]

I like my fish and chips HOT and my beer cold though, thats probably why I have my beer in an Engel........lol,lol.

Batteries and solar panels and the subject ends up on food..........don't you lot get fed ?????????

Marvmart will chime in soon.......

PS: Bahahahahaha @Crusty181 absolute classic again........................have another beer.

 

[scottbec]

well all of the above.

just a thought, but the fridge would most likely pull a fair bit out of your batteries, if you free camp can you run ur fridge on gas ?

Nope - Ours is only 2 way, 12v/240v.

 

[scottbec]

Thanks for all the great info guys.

I need to do a few calculations to work out exactly what the fridge draws so that we have enough power supplied. Pretty much looks like some new batteries and maybe another panel or two is on the cards - time to start saving...

Cheers,

Scott