Electrical Jayco Standard Electrics

[aspiremr]

Hi All,
Apologies if this is answered somewhere else, I have been reading and can't find the answer.
I have a 2.5 year old basestation. I mostly free camp, and rely on my solar and deep cycle batteries to run my compressor fridge, LED lights, and water pump. I am off grid for 2 to 3 days at a time. The batteries have only lasted 2.5 years, which by my reckoning would be about 20 to 25 weekends away. The van has 2 150watt solar panels, standard Jayco solar regulator (TPS-555 PWM), and 2 Bosch Gel 95 aH batteries.

When not running off solar in the bush, my van is parked in a shed with no direct sunlight, and is permanently connected to 240 volt.

The batteries do not seem to be coping and have died way sooner than I would have expected. I am trying to figure out how to make my system more robust.

Is it simply a matter of installing a better battery charger in the van rather than relying on the Setec St235-III unit?

Can anyone recommend a trustworthy and experienced auto electrician who I could get advice from or who could install the required additional hardware?

I would also like an inverter, just for laptops and small electrical appliances. Can anyone give me any advice on whether I have enough battery power to run one of these, or if I need to beef up the entire system.

Most importantly, is whatever I install must be idiot proof, robust, and not require lots and lots of manual intervention. The van will sit for 6 months over summer plugged into 240 volt not being used, as it is only used for motocross in winter.

Thanks in advance for any advice

 

[aspiremr]

Good questions.................................batteries should last better than that, might be a possible wiring problem with the batteries there is the best way, a good way and the wrong way to connect the batteries up, the good way doesn't give a full charge to both so a pic of the battery wiring set up would help and a pic of the display on your solar controller when in full sun but many of us wouldn't be surprised if the wiring is dodgy......................if it's been doing nothing other than sitting on the charger, they should be somewhere above 12.8 once taken off charge and left for 30 miin to settle down.

You haven't explained how they are displaying death. Since I can stay off grid for weeks I wonder if your panels aren't charging as 2 -3 days would drain your batteries.

Thans for the reply Drover,

Good questions.................................batteries should last better than that, might be a possible wiring problem with the batteries there is the best way, a good way and the wrong way to connect the batteries up, the good way doesn't give a full charge to both so a pic of the battery wiring set up would help and a pic of the display on your solar controller when in full sun but many of us wouldn't be surprised if the wiring is dodgy......................if it's been doing nothing other than sitting on the charger, they should be somewhere above 12.8 once taken off charge and left for 30 miin to settle down.

You haven't explained how they are displaying death. Since I can stay off grid for weeks I wonder if your panels aren't charging as 2 -3 days would drain your batteries.

Thanks for the reply Drover,

The solar regulator shows 8 to 9 amps coming in during the day. When I say the batteries have died, they are not holding charge longer than a day when i am off mains power. The low voltage alarm on the solar regulator goes off, typically in the middle of the night.

I took both batteries out of the van and charged them up on a property CTek charger, and then watched them over a week or so. After ignoring the initial drop when they came off the charger, the voltage dropped from about 12.9 down to about 12.3 over 8 days. So I'm assuming they are now dead.

But what I am trying to figure out is why have they died so quickly. I was guessing it is because the Setec unit in the van is not maintaining them well enough in between trips.

 

[Drover]

If they dropped like that on the bench without any load, disconnected from van and each other then I would say they have failed. While the Setek may not have given them a full charge it would have made no change and would be better than none. Your dual batteries should have been connected with Pos to Pos and Neg to Neg with the van Pos coming from one battery and the van Neg from the other this will ensure they both get an equal charge and draw down........The solar reg should be connected directly to the battery. Some have found that while their 12v/solar/charging worked the wiring of the 12v set up left a lot to be desired and was causing problems. Take the batteries to a proper battery shop for a check up but sounds like you may be shopping soon.

When I had one melt down a few years ago the Battery guru said it does happen and GEL/AGM will just fail for no apparent reason or will last for years..................Have a look at this site but be prepared with coffee as it can suck you in with a plethora of wonderful, informative articles.
http://caravanandmotorhomebooks.com/connecting-caravan-batteries/

 

[aspiremr]

If they dropped like that on the bench without any load, disconnected from van and each other then I would say they have failed. While the Setek may not have given them a full charge it would have made no change and would be better than none. Your dual batteries should have been connected with Pos to Pos and Neg to Neg with the van Pos coming from one battery and the van Neg from the other this will ensure they both get an equal charge and draw down........The solar reg should be connected directly to the battery. Some have found that while their 12v/solar/charging worked the wiring of the 12v set up left a lot to be desired and was causing problems. Take the batteries to a proper battery shop for a check up but sounds like you may be shopping soon.

When I had one melt down a few years ago the Battery guru said it does happen and GEL/AGM will just fail for no apparent reason or will last for years..................Have a look at this site but be prepared with coffee as it can suck you in with a plethora of wonderful, informative articles.
http://caravanandmotorhomebooks.com/connecting-caravan-batteries/

Thanks Drover, appreciate the input, and the link to that article. Good info. Think you're right, shopping i go. I just want to make sure that when i go shopping I don't find myself back here again in 2 years. From a bit of reading i am doing I think that the fridge just draws too much for two batteries to sustain, and the battery charging when on mains is not doing to job properly. Now it's just whats the best way to resolve.

I think the solution I have landed on is bypass Setec for battery maintenance and install a good battery charger, replace both dead batteries and add a third, add a third solar panel and put a better solar regulator in. Didn't have that in my budget but as the caravan is integral to my sport, and only ever used off mains I guess you do waht you have to.

If you think there are any holes in above plans love to hear.

Thanks

 

[Drover]

As a PS; your set up should provide you with power for weeks really unless you were running heaps of 240 stuff thru inverters......

Check or get your system checked before you replace any batteries just to make sure things are working properly, someone with some nouse as to what goes on with vans though but if they start to add up a heap of new gear give em a push .

Don't waste your time looking for replacement Bosch batteries the Gels are difficult to find and expensive, I think, as I haven't found any yet, I'm going back to AGM, cheaper and easier to find in stock and on the shelf................In the real world the biggest difference is price and availablity not what the specs say.

 

[alexvk2]

Gel batteries are damaged by overcharging -- this drives off the water which cannot be replaced unlike with a wet cell -- usually they should not be charged at much more than 13.8 V -- check specs of your chargers and get replacement battery to suit.
Sound like you only need around a 150W inverter -- but make sure it is PURE sine wave and not modified or square sine wave as many electronics will only run on pure sine wave AC.

 

[Crusty181]

Hi All,
Apologies if this is answered somewhere else, I have been reading and can't find the answer.
I have a 2.5 year old basestation. I mostly free camp, and rely on my solar and deep cycle batteries to run my compressor fridge, LED lights, and water pump. I am off grid for 2 to 3 days at a time. The batteries have only lasted 2.5 years, which by my reckoning would be about 20 to 25 weekends away. The van has 2 150watt solar panels, standard Jayco solar regulator (TPS-555 PWM), and 2 Bosch Gel 95 aH batteries.

When not running off solar in the bush, my van is parked in a shed with no direct sunlight, and is permanently connected to 240 volt.

The batteries do not seem to be coping and have died way sooner than I would have expected. I am trying to figure out how to make my system more robust.

Is it simply a matter of installing a better battery charger in the van rather than relying on the Setec St235-III unit?

Can anyone recommend a trustworthy and experienced auto electrician who I could get advice from or who could install the required additional hardware?

I would also like an inverter, just for laptops and small electrical appliances. Can anyone give me any advice on whether I have enough battery power to run one of these, or if I need to beef up the entire system.

Most importantly, is whatever I install must be idiot proof, robust, and not require lots and lots of manual intervention. The van will sit for 6 months over summer plugged into 240 volt not being used, as it is only used for motocross in winter.

Thanks in advance for any advice

A large compressor van fridge will give your batteries fair workout, and with a maximum recommended discharge of 50% may well go past that. At 8amp of your panels your putting a 40amps max back into the batteries on a good day, give or take, with the fridge taking upto double that out. At 8amps your not getting your panels combined capacity. I have 1x150w panel which maxes out at around 7amps in good conditions. I suspect your system is isnt generating enough power.

 

[Boots in Action]

Gel batteries are damaged by overcharging -- this drives off the water which cannot be replaced unlike with a wet cell -- usually they should not be charged at much more than 13.8 V -- check specs of your chargers and get replacement battery to suit.
Sound like you only need around a 150W inverter -- but make sure it is PURE sine wave and not modified or square sine wave as many electronics will only run on pure sine wave AC.

Hi All,
Apologies if this is answered somewhere else, I have been reading and can't find the answer.
I have a 2.5 year old basestation. I mostly free camp, and rely on my solar and deep cycle batteries to run my compressor fridge, LED lights, and water pump. I am off grid for 2 to 3 days at a time. The batteries have only lasted 2.5 years, which by my reckoning would be about 20 to 25 weekends away. The van has 2 150watt solar panels, standard Jayco solar regulator (TPS-555 PWM), and 2 Bosch Gel 95 aH batteries.

When not running off solar in the bush, my van is parked in a shed with no direct sunlight, and is permanently connected to 240 volt.

The batteries do not seem to be coping and have died way sooner than I would have expected. I am trying to figure out how to make my system more robust.

Is it simply a matter of installing a better battery charger in the van rather than relying on the Setec St235-III unit?

Can anyone recommend a trustworthy and experienced auto electrician who I could get advice from or who could install the required additional hardware?

I would also like an inverter, just for laptops and small electrical appliances. Can anyone give me any advice on whether I have enough battery power to run one of these, or if I need to beef up the entire system.

Most importantly, is whatever I install must be idiot proof, robust, and not require lots and lots of manual intervention. The van will sit for 6 months over summer plugged into 240 volt not being used, as it is only used for motocross in winter.

Thanks in advance for any advice

I have to agree with most of the comments made by others including @Drover on your problem regarding batteries lasting only a short time. Gel batteries are more sensitive to over-charging and should not be charged at more than 14.1 volts and float charged at no more than 13.3 volts. This at 25 C. Doing so dries out the electrolyte gel paste. The Setec in the van charger should be satisfactory as it is supposed to only reach 14.05 volts on charging, although 13.6 volts on float may be a bit high especially in hot weather. It is assumed that your settings on your property C-tek charger has always been on the correct settings for GEL batteries and that it has the capacity to cover load PLUS charge batteries. External chargers MUST be connected across the battery terminals, ie. POS onto one side of twin batteries and NEG to connection on other battery to even out charging.
Some more suggestions for you are:
One of the Gel batteries may have developed a short and because connected in parallel, will pull the other battery down to its voltage.
Does your Jayco solar controller have user adjuster settings?? It may be set for the wrong battery type and charge voltage!
As mentioned by @Crusty181 , it sounds like you are drawing out more than is being put back in each day, and every time you take the DOD below 50%, you are pushing the limits of how many times the battery can recover full power again. If that happens daily, you are in trouble!!!
Try taking ALL loads off the batteries and just let the solar panels charge the batteries for a couple of days, checking charging voltage at battery connections with a multi-meter. It is assumed solar panels are fixed to roof of van and you can put van out in sun.
A similar check with multi-meter can confirm current draw with accessories in operation. Are they left on whilst not being used??
Perhaps one of the diodes in your solar panel/s has failed and allowing battery current to discharge through the panel/s at night??
Note that high temperatures in the hot van accelerate the deterioration of all batteries, especially if not in a fully charged condition.
Perhaps the use of a MPPT solar controller would be able to put more charge into your batteries instead of the PWM type, but make sure you have user adjuster settings. A MPPT solar controller is up to 30% more efficient than PWM and although the proper GENUINE MPPT controllers are dearer, they are worth it.

Good luck in tracking down the fault/s.

 

[Drover]

Before spending any dough go over all your connections thats most important as throwing in new batteries without checking the rest out could lead to the same thing..........possibly move the controller closer to the battery.............I just feel something is not right in the setup of your gear.
I have a portable 400w invertor for charging my laptop and camera batteries, it's small have had it for years as it came with a previous laptop and being portable is great as it can plug into the ute if need be.

 

[Boots in Action]

Thanks Drover, appreciate the input, and the link to that article. Good info. Think you're right, shopping i go. I just want to make sure that when i go shopping I don't find myself back here again in 2 years. From a bit of reading i am doing I think that the fridge just draws too much for two batteries to sustain, and the battery charging when on mains is not doing to job properly. Now it's just whats the best way to resolve.

I think the solution I have landed on is bypass Setec for battery maintenance and install a good battery charger, replace both dead batteries and add a third, add a third solar panel and put a better solar regulator in. Didn't have that in my budget but as the caravan is integral to my sport, and only ever used off mains I guess you do waht you have to.

If you think there are any holes in above plans love to hear.

Thanks

Just as @Drover said, make sure all is connected correctly BEFORE going to great lengths and cost to fix "the unknown". I agree that your idea to bypass the Setec is a good one , and get yourself a good multi stage charger with all the necessary settings as this would be better at keeping batteries charged for long periods through the summer.. Suggest a Projecta 7 stage 16 amp type or similar. It would also be a good idea to make sure there is a temperature sensor for the batteries as the value for voltage charging alters with temperature. You can do this by having your charger VERY close to the batteries. See attached guide for AGM batteries. A good MPPT solar controller should have one.
I do not think that a third solar panel is warranted as 300 watts of solar panels CORRECTLY CONNECTED should be ample under normal circumstances. BOTH solar panels can be connected in SERIES if using a MPPT controller to gain maximum benefit from the panels. If not sure of possible connections for MPPT solar controller, there are many good videos on how this is done and the benefits of same.

 

[Drover]

Yeppers, sitting at the beach and pull out a mag and it had a story on this stuff in it, surprisingly it was a good write up not the usual bumpf you find in van mags.
.

 

[Boots in Action]

Yeppers, sitting at the beach and pull out a mag and it had a story on this stuff in it, surprisingly it was a good write up not the usual bumpf you find in van mags.
.View attachment 50086

But did you learn anything new to add to your depth of knowledge??? Anything new in technology??

 

[Drover]

Yep make sure you turn the traction control off when hitting the soft sand.................................too much technology hinders the idea of getting away........................................cold fridge happy camper......................................

 

[aspiremr]

THanks to everyone for the replies. Lots of good information and suggestions to get to the bottom of the issues, will work my way through them.

 

[Boots in Action]

THanks to everyone for the replies. Lots of good information and suggestions to get to the bottom of the issues, will work my way through them.

Hi there @aspiremr , love to hear the outcome of your investigations and changes when discovered. It will be interesting to see how close some of our suggestions from afar are to being the real reason for problems. It will help others on this forum avoid the same problems/disappointments you have endured and save us money too!! Best wishes for your success.

 

[aspiremr]

Hi Boots,
The truth is i am a bit overwhelmed still.

From what I can tell my fridge uses somehwere between 7 and 10 amps per hour. Assume it is 8.5, and that means over 24 hours I am drawing 204 amps our of my batteries every 24 hours. That doesnt include other items like LED lights and water pump, which are minimal but still use some power.

I think my solar panels have approx 3 good hours in winter of charging, and each panel can put back in about 10 amps per hour, so 20 amps per hour for 3 hours, total recharge each day is about 60 amps.

The maths doesn't add up, so I clearly need more power. In fact it is surprising the low voltage alarm hasnt gone off earlier, so clearly my maths or assumptions are still out a bit.

I've also concluded that I don't have a decent solar regulator or battery charger in the van, as standard by Jayco.

What I want to do is swap the whole system out for a lithium system, but at a cost of near on $7k it is beyond me, especially given the relatively low amounts of time i use my van, albeit i do use it frequently.

So, what I think I am going to do is as follows:

Replace my two batteries which are 96 Ah gel batteries with two 120 Ah AGM batteries. Install a 3rd 150 watt panel for extra boost during limited sunlight hours. Bypass the setec for charging and the current solar regulator with a Redarc BMS 1230. Replace all the light gauge wiring installed by Jayco. Total spend about $4k.

The logic is that given I am only off grid 2 nights and 2 days on average, at least if the batteries are being charged properly and with extra charge coming in from solar, hopefully it will not kill the batteries as quickly. And with a decent monitor I can tell what is happening to them. Additionally, by doing this I am setting myself up with the future requirements so when these batteries do eventually die I can simply swap them out for a lithium pack.

If that is a dumb plan then I'm happy for more advice, as I still haven't pulled the trigger on any of it.

For the moment, while procrastinating, I am simply using my Generator much more to get me through my 2 day stays with the dud original batteries.

 

[Dobbie]

Is it simply a matter of installing a better battery charger in the van rather than relying on the Setec St235-III unit?

Good auto electrician?

Hi @aspiremr. I've just come across this thread and it seems you're attacking the issue sensibly.

I can't see where you're located but, if it was me, I'd certainly be getting a good auto electrician to give some advice before I spent huge $$$. If you can tackle some of the obvious things first, you can use the process of elimination to change your setup gradually...once you've identified the main issues.

• Wiring possibly needs upgrading but standard wiring should be sufficient for most usage. I know it can be beefed up, but it's a pain to replace if it's not the main issue
• Battery charging when van is stored. I'd certainly invest in a good battery charger to start with. We've found, in the past, with jaycos that a good boosting charge of about eight hours once a month works well. (We currently use a solar panel on the shed to keep the batteries up to speed, even though the van itself is in the shed)
• Batteries. Two AGMs should be sufficient for most usage for two to three days, with some solar input. We currently have two 125 AGMs with 120 roof solar supplemented by 120 portable but main fridge is three way so gas when free camping.
• Compressor fridge power draw seems to be the main issue.
• If you add an inverter that will just compound the issue, IMHO.

I'd certainly be getting the batteries tested and replacing dud batteries to start with, adding a good battery charger and bypassing the Setec, and then reassessing once the charging issue is resolved.

Long term? Lithium certainly but they're still very expensive so you really need a shorter term solution.

Good luck with it!

 

[Drover]

Spending that sort of money would be a waste, replace the batteries if they are dead with AGM's YES, get all the wiring checked before you do anything as I reckon its the problem, wouldn't be the first Jayco with twin batteries and panels to have the thing wired up wrong, they work but not real well............check charger output but a quality charger can only improve things.
You do have the battery switch turned ON when in storage ??

Can you post a couple of picks of the battery set up and any other wire junctions, might help.

I can go off grid for a week or more with half your power thats why I suspect how they have hooked up everything and if you go and buy new batteries, an all singing all dancing controller and charger the same thing can happen.......

Think I mentioned before but I use a portable 400w invertor for the laptop and USB sockets in the van for phones and tablets.

 

[mikerezny]

Hi @aspiremr,
the current draw on the fridge is somewhat higher than I would expect. Can you supply the make and model of the fridge, or better still, look at the specifications in the manual to see if they are consistent with your measurements?
Since the compressor fridge has a duty cycle (ratio between compressor running and not running) the only way to measure current draw is to use a meter that will show the accumulated Ah usage over a 24 hour period.


If the current draw for the fridge is correct, then the only Jayco wiring you should need to change is:
1: heavy duty wire from the battery to a fuse on the Setec. The Setec has a low voltage cut out that would be worth utilising. Ensure that the voltage drop from the battery to the fridge is less than 10% (1.4V), but preferably around 5% (0.7V).
2: Similarly for the cabling direct from the battery, via an inline fuse, to the solar controller(s).

Hopefully the 24-hour current draw is a lot less and you will be able to get away without making too many expensive and weighty additions.

Although the Setec manual claims to support AGM batteries that is not correct. The Setec is not intelligent enough to automatically determine if AGM or Gel is being used and there is no manual setting to select the battery type. AGM needs a higher charging voltage.

As well, you should consider ensuring that you have the metering necessary to have an accurate measurement of instantaneous charge and discharge current, accumulated charge and discharge Ah, and battery voltage so you can always determine the State of Charge of your batteries. This is not expensive, but does take a bit of effort to understand and regularly monitor. There are suitable devices around that cost around $15. I can point you at them if you are interested. Gel batteries at 100% SOC should be showing about 12.85V with no load, measured at least 30 minutes after charging has been stopped. But this voltage varies with ambient temperature. My Gel has varied between 12.86V and 12.65V over summer and winter, fully charged and after a couple of days of use with no charge. But I know my usage very well and I am sure I have never gone below 90% SOC.

Given the reduced life of your batteries, it would seem that 1: they were not being fully charged, or 2: they were being regularly heavily discharged, or 3: they were faulty batteries. Or any combination of them. One thing to consider: the cost of 2 batteries is about $400 and their expected lifetime is about 5 years. So, if you do nothing, you are up for an extra $400 every 5 years, given that your batteries failed after 2 1/2 years. That seems to be a way cheaper alternative to spending $4k to install more expensive batteries, and all the other extra kit. That is assuming that your present system is working as expected.

As @Drover said, it would be well worth understanding and ensuring your present system is actually functioning exactly as expected before lashing out on expensive upgrades. Bear in mind that the weight of heavier batteries, cables, solar panels installed after the van was built has to be taken into account in the personal weight allowance of your van.

I hope this adds some more information to help you make an informed decision.

with kindest regards
Mike

 

[aspiremr]

HI Drover,

Thanks for the advice. I'll take a photo of the battery hookup when i am at the van this weekend.

I agree it seems like a lot of funds. But when I price the 2 batteries, there is $900 in them on their own. And then a 3rd solar panel, approx. $400. So I'm at $1,300 before I even start. Then at the very minimum I have to get a decent battery charger and decent solar regulator installed, and have an Auto electrician wire them in so the Setec power supply is bypassed as a charger.

I can't see how just the replacement bits are going to come to less than $2k, and thats without an auto electrician to do the install (I am seriously incapable of doing this myself, sadly).

But I am still a little way away from actually spending the funds. So I still appreciate all and any input.

Will put that photo of the batteries up early next week.
Thanks
Michael