17' Series Annex Safety Issues Strikes Vic

[Reds]

Whilst awaiting delivery of 17.56.1 in early Sept upgrading from 16.49.2 I was informed by the dealer on Thursday that they cannot currently supply an annex with my new van. This is due to the issue raised previously in QLD and SA in regards to the new Gas regulations for vans with fridges on the annex side. Apparently Jayco and annex manufacturers are working frantically for a solution. To me the fix is easy supply a two way fridge or just don't connect the Gas or install the vent. In 4 years I haven't used the Gas for the fridge so its not a big issue. However, for people who use the Gas regularly this is a huge issue that needs to be sorted out ASAP.

Regards
Red

 

[Bards]

Whilst awaiting delivery of 17.56.1 in early Sept upgrading from 16.49.2 I was informed by the dealer on Thursday that they cannot currently supply an annex with my new van. This is due to the issue raised previously in QLD and SA in regards to the new Gas regulations for vans with fridges on the annex side. Apparently Jayco and annex manufacturers are working frantically for a solution. To me the fix is easy supply a two way fridge or just don't connect the Gas or install the vent. In 4 years I haven't used the Gas for the fridge so its not a big issue. However, for people who use the Gas regularly this is a huge issue that needs to be sorted out ASAP.

Regards
Red

Hi Red, yep just got that phone call 2 days ago, we were going to get a after market annex eventually for when we are set up for long periods, so we didn't mention it to the dealer initially, now we're told no annex until this is sorted out (if it can be), not sure what to do now, continue in the hopes it is sorted out, or lose my deposit by cancelling my order. The dealer offered me a 12volt fridge, but the largest size is only 110 litres, too small!

I am worried though that if we do purchase the re-sale if we had to sell would be atrocious.

Bad all around I reckon, what I can't understand is that jayco are saying that they only heard about it last week (yeah sure), they would have surely been consulted when this new law was being drafted, they would of known when my order was placed!(rant over )

Not sure what to do!

 

[rags]

I have seen this issue raised and being in the gas industry, I will offer my take on the issue. The gas installation is installed at time of manufacture and certified with a certificate of inspection /compliance on leaving the factory. This certificate is accepted in all states except Qld who require a Qld licenced Gas Fitter to re-certify it before rego in that state.
The Gas Installation is certified to AS 5601, as the annex [with walls only being an issue] is not fitted or erected at the time of certification, it then should not be considered in any certification process. The issue has got very confused with different state regulators having different views with Qld being the state who raised and has had the main problem. Vic ESV has got on board with the issue but not sure were they currently sit on the issue.There is much conjecture regarding any annex walls and required ventilation and was the original intent of AS5601 being a permanent non canvas structure.The issue will continue to be debated for a while yet.My suggestion to anyone facing the issue is to get your new van , get the rego and then retrofit the annex, and don't worry as no one has died from using a gas appliance that vents into a canvas annex area.

 

[jeff]

Seems to be a load of bullocks to me, what about a few vents in the skirt of the annexe. Never knew an annexe was so airtight. Hope they get the legalities sorted for those that want an annexe

 

[Reds]

Hi Adam

Yes the effect on resale is one of my concerns.
The regulation came into effect on 31 March 2014 according to energy safe Vic website. I order at the Melb show in early March and it makes you wonder why this was allowed to occur in the first place.

I was told that Jayco are changing the floor plans for next year, but this is no good for 2014 customers.

Apparently there are a lot of other manufactures in the same boat.

What annoys me is that I sold a perfectly good van with annex just a bit small for the growing family. However, if I cannot have an annex in a few years when my son is too big for the bunks were does he sleep. (The annex we planned).

Perhaps if they gave the 110 litre 12v fridge and a 65 litre Waeco that might assist.

Its very worrying and annoying especially when I have 7 weeks of holidays booked between Sept and Feb

Red

 

[acmackie]

Not exactly the same, but I know one member (I think @Capt. Gadget) has a couple of Oztents that fit nicely at the sides of the awning. Could be an option for some?

 

[rags]

Hi Red, yep just got that phone call 2 days ago, we were going to get a after market annex eventually for when we are set up for long periods, so we didn't mention it to the dealer initially, now we're told no annex until this is sorted out (if it can be), not sure what to do now, continue in the hopes it is sorted out, or lose my deposit by cancelling my order. The dealer offered me a 12volt fridge, but the largest size is only 110 litres, too small!

I am worried though that if we do purchase the re-sale if we had to sell would be atrocious.

Bad all around I reckon, what I can't understand is that jayco are saying that they only heard about it last week (yeah sure), they would have surely been consulted when this new law was being drafted, they would of known when my order was placed!(rant over )

Not sure what to do!

Should not be an issue for you in NSW as the issue relates to the new AS5601 [2014] and NSW has not adopted it yet, but the problem is that as Jayco are manufactured and gas certified there then they come with a VIC certificate of compliance which is accepted in NSW , but I assume that your NSW dealer will fit the annex at delivery ,but they then I assume won't issue a new gas Certificate so should not be a problem,
Also Jayco or any other manufacturer or gasfitter would not be consulted on any changes to any standards only advised through information session presented by state regulators when any new standard is adopted.

 

[mfexpanda]

What would happen if everyone affected said just cancel the van you can't deliver so give me my money back .

 

[Bards]

What would happen if everyone affected said just cancel the van you can't deliver so give me my money back .

Hey mfexpanda, I sorted of hinted that to the dealer and he said you didn't technically order a annex on the van( as I was going to buy aftermarket ) so I would probably loose my deposit if I cancelled, pretty rough, if they new about this since march!

 

[Holden_man]

Have a read of this......maybe we can't connect our Webber to the external gas points either...

http://mines.industry.qld.gov.au/safety-and-health/rv-forum.html

 

[Smergen]

Ssheeesh....

Can I still light a bonfire in my annexe?

 

[Holden_man]

Ssheeesh....

Can I still light a bonfire in my annexe?

Bonfires are ok, as are fireworks, but no gas.....

 

[Bmhdg76]

Bonfires are ok, as are using fireworks, but no gas.....

I better not get one then!

BJ

 

[macca]

I have seen this issue raised and being in the gas industry, I will offer my take on the issue. The gas installation is installed at time of manufacture and certified with a certificate of inspection /compliance on leaving the factory. This certificate is accepted in all states except Qld who require a Qld licenced Gas Fitter to re-certify it before rego in that state.
The Gas Installation is certified to AS 5601, as the annex [with walls only being an issue] is not fitted or erected at the time of certification, it then should not be considered in any certification process. The issue has got very confused with different state regulators having different views with Qld being the state who raised and has had the main problem. Vic ESV has got on board with the issue but not sure were they currently sit on the issue.There is much conjecture regarding any annex walls and required ventilation and was the original intent of AS5601 being a permanent non canvas structure.The issue will continue to be debated for a while yet.My suggestion to anyone facing the issue is to get your new van , get the rego and then retrofit the annex, and don't worry as no one has died from using a gas appliance that vents into a canvas annex area.

Rags, I too am in the gas industry, I am in Victoria. I have posted about this before, and I agree with you about your opening comment, once the annexe has been fitted the installation of the fridge has "technically been changed. In Victoria, the death of two little boys from Carbon Monoxide poisoning in a normal domestic house from a common heater changed our industry forever, in a good way. A lot more awareness and modification/changes to ventilation codes for one.
http://www.chaseandtyler.org.au/ (gives information about Chase and Tyler who died from Carbon Monoxide poisoning and other CO related matters).
Now I know a fridge uses around or under 1 mJ of gas which is heaps less than a heater but the fact is the rules are being strictly enforced. I think the big players in all this will work something out but that's probably not good for people picking up vans now. Some vans may just require the flue run vertically through the roof, no good for poptops but definitely possible for full size vans and I think the big 185 fridge is flued this way anyway so my understanding is these would be OK, its just the smaller 90/150 range with the flue out the rear. Isn't it weird though that vans form the 70's etc had fridges in them that were flued into the living area and that was just the way..
I wonder if in years to come if we will have gas fridges as standard, the way solar power technology is advancing, compressor fridges seems to be an easier solution.

 

[gwadir]

Rags, I too am in the gas industry, I am in Victoria........

Hey @macca, if the regulators are so concerned about this then why didn't they make it retrospective, as @rags said maybe some in the industry have misconstrued the intent of the standard and it wasn't meant to include canvas annexes just permanent annexes.

Dave

 

[rags]

Hey @macca, if the regulators are so concerned about this then why didn't they make it retrospective, as @rags said maybe some in the industry have misconstrued the intent of the standard and it wasn't meant to include canvas annexes just permanent annexes.

Dave

Fortunately regulators can't retrospectively impose new rules on an existing installation,otherwise the RV industry , Home industry would be in uproar. What I am also implying is that they also can't subsanquently taken action with a licenced gasfitter who would certify the installation at the leaving the fctory and then it was fitted with an annex after he has certified that it complied, as the licensee is the one responsible not Jayco or Avan etc at time of inspection and a PIN would not stand up if challenged. Also the there is no scope in the AS5601 to legislate that if the appliance vents to the outside on the left side of a van then it must be extended above roof line as then they would have to make it for all sides.
As Macca has stated above in Vic there was the case of the 2 boys who unfortunatly died but being aware of this case doesnot in any way compare with a annex being fitted to a van and also no action could be taken against any parties only future recommendations. I am also aware that many some states have taken a diffferent view to Qld and Vic when the annex issue was discussed in a national regulators forum rcently.
It also has been pointed out that if they wish to enforce this there are many other inconsistancies with they should also look at , including location of the regulator, location of bottles in boots , location of bottles and regos under slide out beds like jayco campers, which again would require a redisgn of vans, which many currently don't strictly comply with both old and new standards.
Also in some states have not yet adopted the latest AS5601 2013 and in NSW they still currently use the 2004 edition but will adopt the 2013 cde when the gas act is reviewed.

 

[Capt. Gadget]

Cant you just retrofit a flue to the outside vent on a van and vent outside the annex, when you remove that little cover plate it looks like its made for something to be attached to it

 

[Capt. Gadget]

Not exactly the same, but I know one member (I think @Capt. Gadget) has a couple of Oztents that fit nicely at the sides of the awning. Could be an option for some?

Yeah we have opted for a couple of oztents that I've had modified to attach to the sail track on the antiflap bars It just gives us a little more flexibility
Pic here
and here

 

[Bards]

Should not be an issue for you in NSW as the issue relates to the new AS5601 [2014] and NSW has not adopted it yet, but the problem is that as Jayco are manufactured and gas certified there then they come with a VIC certificate of compliance which is accepted in NSW , but I assume that your NSW dealer will fit the annex at delivery ,but they then I assume won't issue a new gas Certificate so should not be a problem,
Also Jayco or any other manufacturer or gasfitter would not be consulted on any changes to any standards only advised through information session presented by state regulators when any new standard is adopted.

Rags, purchased van from Vic dealer. But the problem is no one will sell me a annex anywhere in Australia , not even a dealer in sydney !

 

[Bards]

I have seen this issue raised and being in the gas industry, I will offer my take on the issue. The gas installation is installed at time of manufacture and certified with a certificate of inspection /compliance on leaving the factory. This certificate is accepted in all states except Qld who require a Qld licenced Gas Fitter to re-certify it before rego in that state.
The Gas Installation is certified to AS 5601, as the annex [with walls only being an issue] is not fitted or erected at the time of certification, it then should not be considered in any certification process. The issue has got very confused with different state regulators having different views with Qld being the state who raised and has had the main problem. Vic ESV has got on board with the issue but not sure were they currently sit on the issue.There is much conjecture regarding any annex walls and required ventilation and was the original intent of AS5601 being a permanent non canvas structure.The issue will continue to be debated for a while yet.My suggestion to anyone facing the issue is to get your new van , get the rego and then retrofit the annex, and don't worry as no one has died from using a gas appliance that vents into a canvas annex area.

Rags no one will sell you a full annex anywhere in Australia, I know I have tried!