Greetings From ColinM

ColinM

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Jul 31, 2019
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Hey @Drover

Good luck with the sale of the yaks.

Saw your post - in this thread - in particular - this extract:

...if your going to do a fair bit of free camping then have them fit dual batteries, demanding the panels and batteries are included in the weights on the compliance plate so you get your full 400kg weight allowance from the beginning...........otherwise the panels and batteries will end up being deducted from your 400kg and 100kg lost to equipment is not to be laughed at. ...


Could you explain that please for this noob?
 

Drover

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No problemo, if you can make them fit out the extras (like panels, batteries etc) before the compliance plate is affixed to your vehicle then the tare weight might be close to reality and you should get close to your stated loading capacity usually 400 or 600kg (single/dual axle), if the stuff is fitted at the dealers it will actually eat into the stated loading capacity, a solar panel can be about 15kg or more, a battery will start at 30kg, extra tank 10kg, tool box 25kg so getting extrta stuff fitted by the dealer can actual mean you aren't able to put the beer or food in your van, it doesn't take very long for a 100kgs to be used up and with fixed equipment it doesn't move, thats why the tare weight on your compliance plate is a myth and should be looked at, noted then ignored as it will never be ....with your van in its ready to load state ie: one tank of water, gas bottles filled usual junk in boot ( jack screens, floor mats, pegs etc) weight the van this figure is a real time tare weight, as your van is at its basic weight, subtract this weight from you ATM and the result will show you how much you have left for food, beer and jocks and socks ............... The ATM being the total of the whole van, if you go over this then you can attract fines, if you can get a ball weight you subtract that from the ATM and the result should be less than the GTM on your Comp Plate, if not your in the poo again as this can cost $$. Ideal ball weight for dual cab Utes and stuff really should be 250kg, if you get up to the 300kg plus then you will find your tug has lost its capacity to carry a full quota of bottoms and associated junk....

With weights there is a number of boxes that need to be ticked for compliance, with trucks the overall weight of the vehicle could be inside the limits but one of your many axles could be over, even by half a tonne $1000 thank you................with vans it could be the same if they got techo, the overall figure is good but your drive axle on tug is 1900kg, sorry its plated for 1800kg .................... but don't worry about it, too many go nuts about weights and they really have no idea, if you look overloaded you will attract if your set looks good , its usually okay.

The magazines and web sites just go stupid with it, they don't explain the fundamentals properly, if someone bangs on about tare weight then ignore them..,....

The link I put up earlier is a good reference...... I was near Mt Barker a few months ago, when all the crappy weather was about, pity the poor timing, we could have met up, gone for a train ride and covered some ground....
 
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ColinM

Member
Jul 31, 2019
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Mount Barker, Western Australia
No problemo, if you can make them fit out the extras (like panels, batteries etc) before the compliance plate is affixed to your vehicle then the tare weight might be close to reality and you should get close to your stated loading capacity usually 400 or 600kg (single/dual axle), if the stuff is fitted at the dealers it will actually eat into the stated loading capacity, a solar panel can be about 15kg or more, a battery will start at 30kg, extra tank 10kg, tool box 25kg so getting extrta stuff fitted by the dealer can actual mean you aren't able to put the beer or food in your van, it doesn't take very long for a 100kgs to be used up and with fixed equipment it doesn't move, thats why the tare weight on your compliance plate is a myth and should be looked at, noted then ignored as it will never be ....with your van in its ready to load state ie: one tank of water, gas bottles filled usual junk in boot ( jack screens, floor mats, pegs etc) weight the van this figure is a real time tare weight, as your van is at its basic weight, subtract this weight from you ATM and the result will show you how much you have left for food, beer and jocks and socks ............... The ATM being the total of the whole van, if you go over this then you can attract fines, if you can get a ball weight you subtract that from the ATM and the result should be less than the GTM on your Comp Plate, if not your in the poo again as this can cost $$. Ideal ball weight for dual cab Utes and stuff really should be 250kg, if you get up to the 300kg plus then you will find your tug has lost its capacity to carry a full quota of bottoms and associated junk....

With weights there is a number of boxes that need to be ticked for compliance, with trucks the overall weight of the vehicle could be inside the limits but one of your many axles could be over, even by half a tonne $1000 thank you................with vans it could be the same if they got techo, the overall figure is good but your drive axle on tug is 1900kg, sorry its plated for 1800kg .................... but don't worry about it, too many go nuts about weights and they really have no idea, if you look overloaded you will attract if your set looks good , its usually okay.

The magazines and web sites just go stupid with it, they don't explain the fundamentals properly, if someone bangs on about tare weight then ignore them..,....

The link I put up earlier is a good reference...... I was near Mt Barker a few months ago, when all the crappy weather was about, pity the poor timing, we could have met up, gone for a train ride and covered some ground....

@Drover - Thanks very much for that.I understand where you are coming from now and yes, I've been gone through that link you kindly supplied and also info kindly supplied by @Crusty181 . You have both been invaluable to me, especially as a newby, getting my head around the requirements and making me aware of how imperative that compliance is. Get it wrong and it could be the end of our dream - apart from the safety aspects. Which again, given how this is so scrutinised, it shouldn't surprise me that said authorities and the associated legislation don't result in more accuracy and accountability with van manufacturers and dealerships.

See if I have this right - given a van has a stated Aggregate Trailer Mass (ATM) wouldn't getting the Dealer to re compliance the Tare Weight not have any benefits other that to give me (if they do it right and honestly) to have an accurate (actual) stamped Tare Weight and load capacity before the ATM is reached or exceeded?

Edit - It is indeed a pity we didn't meet up when you were over here - let's hope we can at some stage.
 
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Drover

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Yep, certainly the wrong Mt Barker, never know there is still a chance as we did have a trip to Wait Awhile planned for 19 but moved it to 20, might happen eventually.....................

Now as for your weight question.............short quicky answer; the ATM/GTM can be moved higher depending on the rating of axles/wheel combo BUT depending on the state regs as I think some are changing, most of the time a dealer won't, the manufacture will ignore you, once they fix the plate they don't really want to know you, many go and get it done with an engineer to certify ....there is a recent thread on it all..........a lot just ignore the plate for in reality there is no compliance check on the plates, it is self regulated and thusly plates are often incorrect, the various federal/state legislation if I recall correctly only requires the ATM, GTM, Vin and date of manufacture to be shown all the rest of the details are bumpf oh and the compliance numbers...........There have been cases where the tare on the plate is about 50kgs less than the ATM on the plate, obviously a fail but not picked up.

Here's a goody .................. there is a minimum and maximum height for the tow ball from the ground, the regulation is a bit cloudy as it states 50mm ball, interesting that some Coromal vans un modified exceed that measurement by quite some inches............but thats something to ignore.

PS: Mt Barker in SA had some great steam train rides, had planned for a couple of them but crappy weather meant we only got to do The Cockle Train from Goolwa.
 
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ColinM

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Yep, certainly the wrong Mt Barker, never know there is still a chance as we did have a trip to Wait Awhile planned for 19 but moved it to 20, might happen eventually.....................

Now as for your weight question.............short quicky answer; the ATM/GTM can be moved higher depending on the rating of axles/wheel combo BUT depending on the state regs as I think some are changing, most of the time a dealer won't, the manufacture will ignore you, once they fix the plate they don't really want to know you, many go and get it done with an engineer to certify ....there is a recent thread on it all..........a lot just ignore the plate for in reality there is no compliance check on the plates, it is self regulated and thusly plates are often incorrect, the various federal/state legislation if I recall correctly only requires the ATM, GTM, Vin and date of manufacture to be shown all the rest of the details are bumpf oh and the compliance numbers...........There have been cases where the tare on the plate is about 50kgs less than the ATM on the plate, obviously a fail but not picked up.

Here's a goody .................. there is a minimum and maximum height for the tow ball from the ground, the regulation is a bit cloudy as it states 50mm ball, interesting that some Coromal vans un modified exceed that measurement by quite some inches............but thats something to ignore.

Thanks again Drover - ah....self regulation - the great mythical oxymoron which never works!

Oh my goodness - another measurement/reg.
 
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Drover

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Been looking at vehicle carrying capacities recently and when you get down to it most tugs float around the 600kg mark inreality, minus 250kg ball weight and a couple of bottoms doesn't leave much at all..................... head in the sand works.

I have so many invites from over there I will need months to cover them all, was planning on months anyway, still but a dream, we never plan just decide and pack up and go, usually must detour via Canberra (grandkids) make sit very annoying when heading to Winton and the likes.....

My threads on my vans might have some info for you, certainly some laughs anyway.....

https://www.expandasdownunder.com/threads/drovers-14-44-3.4502/

https://www.expandasdownunder.com/threads/drovers-new-rig-big-m
 
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Crusty181

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@Drover - Thanks very much for that.I understand where you are coming from now and yes, I've been gone through that link you kindly supplied and also info kindly supplied by @Crusty181 . You have both been invaluable to me, especially as a newby, getting my head around the requirements and making me aware of how imperative that compliance is. Get it wrong and it could be the end of our dream - apart from the safety aspects. Which again, given how this is so scrutinised, it shouldn't surprise me that said authorities and the associated legislation don't result in more accuracy and accountability with van manufacturers and dealerships.

See if I have this right - given a van has a stated Aggregate Trailer Mass (ATM) wouldn't getting the Dealer to re compliance the Tare Weight not have any benefits other that to give me (if they do it right and honestly) to have an accurate (actual) stamped Tare Weight and load capacity before the ATM is reached or exceeded?

Edit - It is indeed a pity we didn't meet up when you were over here - let's hope we can at some stage.
Hmmm. @Drover is spot on, the ATM is your only real concern. The tare would only ever give some "guidance" of what you van's empty was at some historical point in time when it was built. Your payload is only ever going to be whats left between today's current weigh bridge ticket, and that stamped ATM.

There are conflicting versions of this but stick with me, I reckon mines right. Fact. Jaycos payload on any van is actual weighbridge tare plus a predetermined weight allowance. Fact. Every van is weighed to determine actual tare of each van, and the rest is calculated from that. Fact. The weight allowance is a rounded pre determined figure, dependant on how many axles and if its a bathroom or no bathroom, and that as complex or simple as it gets. Fact Outback or tourer plays no part. To keep it simple, your looking at a dual axle bathroom model and the payload for every base Jayco twin-axle bathroom model built is 475kg. Mine, yours, his, Expanda, Journey, Starcraft, Silverline same same same, Fact every one is a 475kg payload. Each new empty van off the production line van is weighed at the factory, that tare is recorded and the 475kg payload added to that tare to get the ATM. Every new van will have a weighbridge ticket, and that ticket should be found amongst the books and brochures in the van on delivery. Gas bottles are included in the tare, but not the gas inside which is added by the dealer later.

Let's say just for fun your empty factory tare (dry) weight is 2500kg

You take your empty brand new van home and do nothing except fill the water tanks and connect the mains hose, not another single thing more you do. You now "completely" empty the water tanks and disconnect the mains hose and put it back in the garage. The empty weight of van is now 2550kg, 50kg heavier than the factory dry weight and youve done nothing other than briefly fill and then empty the water tanks, and connect and disconnect a hose. There is nothing more you can reasonably remove from it's factory delivered state yet 50kg of your original 475kg payload is now missing. That 50kg is the water in the hot water service, water in the charged plumbing, gas in the gas bottles and residual water in the water tanks that you can never come out. Once you start adding other rudimentary permanent mods or things like such as a power cord, water hose, doorstep for dodgy knees, broom, floor mat, service and warranty books, complimenary dealer couch cushions etc etc your tare quickly becomes more and more a distant memory that (and like any good mother inlaw) you will never ever see it ever again. That's why van tare is an interesting fun fact, but in all other cases utterly useless info.

Its very easy to buy a std van with no options and take it home to add all the very reasonable and common options people do, and then find the van be over its ATM before it's first outing and before you add a sleeping bag, a jumper or a bag of frozen peas. Couple of solar panels, extra battery, diesel or gas heater (although not sure why you'd bother with a gas heater), 2 x 82ltr water tanks, bike rack, gas BBQ .... it doesnt take a lot to burn 475kg of payload, particularly when you're already missing the first 50kg.

There are stories of Jayco, on request, adding a modest addition to their 475kg std payload but don't rely on that because there's many more refusals.
 
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ColinM

Member
Jul 31, 2019
57
63
18
Mount Barker, Western Australia
Been looking at vehicle carrying capacities recently and when you get down to it most tugs float around the 600kg mark inreality, minus 250kg ball weight and a couple of bottoms doesn't leave much at all..................... head in the sand works.

I have so many invites from over there I will need months to cover them all, was planning on months anyway, still but a dream, we never plan just decide and pack up and go, usually must detour via Canberra (grandkids) make sit very annoying when heading to Winton and the likes.....

My threads on my vans might have some info for you, certainly some laughs anyway.....

https://www.expandasdownunder.com/threads/drovers-14-44-3.4502/

https://www.expandasdownunder.com/threads/drovers-new-rig-big-m

Cheers for that Drover will check out those links. Sounds like you'll have quite an itinerary - after the Canberra detour that is.
 
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ColinM

Member
Jul 31, 2019
57
63
18
Mount Barker, Western Australia
Hmmm. @Drover is spot on, the ATM is your only real concern. The tare would only ever give some "guidance" of what you van's empty was at some historical point in time when it was built. Your payload is only ever going to be whats left between today's current weigh bridge ticket, and that stamped ATM.

There are conflicting versions of this but stick with me, I reckon mines right. Fact. Jaycos payload on any van is actual weighbridge tare plus a predetermined weight allowance. Fact. Every van is weighed to determine actual tare of each van, and the rest is calculated from that. Fact. The weight allowance is a rounded pre determined figure, dependant on how many axles and if its a bathroom or no bathroom, and that as complex or simple as it gets. Fact Outback or tourer plays no part. To keep it simple, your looking at a dual axle bathroom model and the payload for every base Jayco twin-axle bathroom model built is 475kg. Mine, yours, his, Expanda, Journey, Starcraft, Silverline same same same, Fact every one is a 475kg payload. Each new empty van off the production line van is weighed at the factory, that tare is recorded and the 475kg payload added to that tare to get the ATM. Every new van will have a weighbridge ticket, and that ticket should be found amongst the books and brochures in the van on delivery. Gas bottles are included in the tare, but not the gas inside which is added by the dealer later.

Let's say just for fun your empty factory tare (dry) weight is 2500kg

You take your empty brand new van home and do nothing except fill the water tanks and connect the mains hose, not another single thing more you do. You now "completely" empty the water tanks and disconnect the mains hose and put it back in the garage. The empty weight of van is now 2550kg, 50kg heavier than the factory dry weight and youve done nothing other than briefly fill and then empty the water tanks, and connect and disconnect a hose. There is nothing more you can reasonably remove from it's factory delivered state yet 50kg of your original 475kg payload is now missing. That 50kg is the water in the hot water service, water in the charged plumbing, gas in the gas bottles and residual water in the water tanks that you can never come out. Once you start adding other rudimentary permanent mods or things like such as a power cord, water hose, doorstep for dodgy knees, broom, floor mat, service and warranty books, complimenary dealer couch cushions etc etc your tare quickly becomes more and more a distant memory that (and like any good mother inlaw) you will never ever see it ever again. That's why van tare is an interesting fun fact, but in all other cases utterly useless info.

Its very easy to buy a std van with no options and take it home to add all the very reasonable and common options people do, and then find the van be over its ATM before it's first outing and before you add a sleeping bag, a jumper or a bag of frozen peas. Couple of solar panels, extra battery, diesel or gas heater (although not sure why you'd bother with a gas heater), 2 x 82ltr water tanks, bike rack, gas BBQ .... it doesnt take a lot to burn 475kg of payload, particularly when you're already missing the first 50kg.

There are stories of Jayco, on request, adding a modest addition to their 475kg std payload but don't rely on that because there's many more refusals.

Very well and comprehensively explained and substantiated Crusty - I could spend the next three years on the whole weight issue alone. Thanks heaps once again.
 
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BJM

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There is also another factor which comes into the towing equation,what vehicles have the braking capabilities including engine braking,engine torque without twin turbos ,to tow 3 .5 ton safely in comfort ,plus off road capabilities at a ,reasonable price ,only one the WK 2 Grand Cherokee diesel 3 l.I have friends with a 2 year old Prado,and 4 year old Pajero we all tow around the same weight vans ,performance from these two makes when towing ,especially up hills is pretty ordinary.Also can somebody tell me why all the utes capable of towing supposedly 3.5 tons still have drum rear brakes in most cases.Not that I would tow a 3.5 ton caravan anyway.!!
 
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Drover

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Now that explanation @Crusty181 is just perfect, wish i had wrote it .....in fact it should be cut and pasted into a sticky, locked so no comments can detract from it..............................
 
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ColinM

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Mount Barker, Western Australia
There is also another factor which comes into the towing equation,what vehicles have the braking capabilities including engine braking,engine torque without twin turbos ,to tow 3 .5 ton safely in comfort ,plus off road capabilities at a ,reasonable price ,only one the WK 2 Grand Cherokee diesel 3 l.I have friends with a 2 year old Prado,and 4 year old Pajero we all tow around the same weight vans ,performance from these two makes when towing ,especially up hills is pretty ordinary.Also can somebody tell me why all the utes capable of towing supposedly 3.5 tons still have drum rear brakes in most cases.Not that I would tow a 3.5 ton caravan anyway.!!

G'Day BJM - Good to see another member buying into this thread. Will be interesting to see how the V6 Amarok goes towing uphill - I know the Amaroks are good off road - and the V6 does have disks all round.
 

Drover

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If you have to rely on the brakes then your going too fast...................but having discs all round is so much easier to maintain, drums are a pain.......BJM is right about the Jeep, under rated in many ways because of dud management in the Chrysler days............
 
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Crusty181

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Speaking of Jeep. Funny story today, about an hour ago on the way home from dropping some folding off to my lovely Toyota fleet manager I passed the local Chrysler Jeep Dodge Fiat Abarth (whatever in God's name an Abarth is) dealer. Usually, I wouldn't have taken that route home but another Toyota dealer had a new Troopy in stock and its been so long since I purchased mine I needed to refresh my memory as to what it looks like; so I don't end up in a Prius on Monday.

I'll have to make an apology for my previous Jeep comments, these $hitboxes are walking out the door in fact they have completely sold out of all stock on hand, including their office furniture. There's probably a few Fiats out the back, no sane person would buy one of them.

IMG_20190808_135837.jpg
 
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Drover

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Sounds like a twinge of regret there me thinks ........................... having nothing to do lately I have studied the reason why one see's so many Grand Cherokees on the road towing vans and I have worked out a couple of things.........
1.....Those driving a Jeep have found thats there's nothing else that will do the job, unless you want to pay the Toyota or Landrover Tax, nothing matches, PLUS the wife says this is the vehicle.
2.....The rest are towing with dual cabs because ideally they are better vehicles to set up and if your serious then only in a tray back ...Jeep has more grunt...these blokes have the Mrs in line or don't listen.
3.....The Cruiser mob have the money but not the time and usually lots of bling........
4......The rest are driving vehicles that the Salesman said would be ideal but isn't and they will defend their vehicle with ferocity while waiting for the time they too can buy a Jeep.
5......Then there is the Dodge RAM 1500 bloke, tow his van but has to look in the mirror to see if its there as the 5.7 hemi is grunt personified but he could have got a Grand Cherokee with the same big grunt engine for less $$$$$

6............. Navara are plentiful towing campers, great tug.

7. Just saw the topic and I'm a bit OT ........ it's Crusty's fault you know.................

Anyone want to buy a used Colorado, superbly maintained and fitted out, top nick could even throw in a nice QLD holiday with view of Fraser.


And I found the Fiats I drove in Hong Kong years ago to be fantastic had some great drags against the Royal navy blokes.
 
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