Towing and Crashing - an opinion.

Crusty181

Well-Known Member
Feb 7, 2010
6,854
13,971
113
Mentone, VIC
I don't get how the same chassis, same brakes and "special suspension" with a little blue plate called a GVM upgrade can allow you to tow more. Someone who has more knowledge on this please explain as I am genuinely interested in the science behind it.
I have the "little blue plate". Most important point is a GVM upgrade has no affect on tow capacity. There is no way in Oz to increase the your vehicles tow capacity. That limit is set in stone by the manufacturer and the design rules dont allow that to be changed. GVM upgrades only raises the vehicles weight carrying capacity. The theory is an engineer examines the vehicles capacity taking into account all manner of inputs over the obvious on being vehicle's inherent strength. The testing process requires examination of all stress areas, testing of steering, and real world track testing for braking capacity and sway, and a whole bunch of other hoodoo voodoo things.

A similar ATM upgrade process applies in a much simpler form with cavarans. Jayco uses the same chassis materials across all models from 1500kg to 3500kg ATM's just in different lengths etc. They then add ALKO components which come rated out of the box. The chassis have an engineered (well I hope they do) capacity way over what they will ultimately carry. Then Jayco weigh your individual van model and then add their standard payload. When Jayco change models within a range they have no clue what it will weigh before the first one comes off the production line.

Its no coincidence even though your vans ATM changes as you add a vast array of factory accessories, the physical make up of the chassis doesn't because in every instance the chassis components are know to be able to carry more; the van is simple under-rated to suit the standard Jayco kerb weight plus payload formula. Like my car, the van is quite capable of carry more than the original "little white plate" says; its simply under-rated below its real capacity by manufacturer at the factory.

Another similar "under rating" process car manufactures sometimes do is engine output capacity. My last work ute had a kW output of 126kW. A few model updates latter the exact same engine produced 146kW. There's persistent urban myth that the later model Toyota Prados are capable of towing 3500kg, but are under rated to protect the lucrative Landcruiser market

I have a 2104 Navara (best car ever, by the way) and it has a tow capacity of 3000kg, yet a Pathfinder with very similar componentry and coiled rear end has a tow capacity of 3500kg. Its also no coincidence that every single car has a round figure tow capacity ie 3500kg 3000kg 2500kg etc.

Vehicles GVM upgrades come with suspension upgrades for 2 important reasons. The first is the soft factory suspension used to soften the ride in order to sell the car is maybe not upto the task; but more importantly whilst GVM upgrades appear to be an "off the shelf" suspension company product, GVM upgrade are always provided by suspension suppliers because its a service to sell more suspension. The suspension companys such as Pedders have gone through the GVM re-engineering process only with popular vehicles in order to sell their suspension components. Thats why if you dont have a popular vehicle you simple cant get a GVM upgrade, because no-one supplies it. Dont confuse suspension upgrade with GVM upgrade

There's a little furphy floating about you can get any vehicle's GVM upgraded, and whilst that's true in theory finding a automotive engineer that will do it is the first hurdle, and the $15000 I was quoted is the second hurdle.

Therse also some furphys floating about how GVM upgrades are only legal in the state they are done. Whilst the the upgrade may well be only recorded with the registration authority of that state, its far from illegal, otherwise the ridiculous situation would arise where i would cease to have registration, or insurance as soon as I crossed a state border.
 
Last edited:

davemc

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2013
4,360
4,737
113
55
Viewbank, Victoria
www.expandasdownunder.com
I just think not just for vanners most people who buy and mod 4WD should be more careful.
Although they take the full fridge out, draws and remove the boat and 2nd spare if they had to take it over a weigh bridge yearly.

I said this before when we where looking to replace the D3 most car salesman had no idea payload and GCM.
It was all 3 tonne towing mate.. She tows big vans yours be no problems. its 3 tonne mate.
The Mitsubishi guy actually said its not real 3.1 tonne unless your a very skinny guy :)
The Paj Sport is really the best example of marketing vs reality

Now the sums of the Paj sport I can never work out how it does 3100 with any real TBM.
https://www.mitsubishi-motors.com.au/vehicles/pajero-sport/specifications
GVM 2710 although GCM 5400 - 3100 = 2300. It has a Kerb weight of 2100???
So to tow 3100 with only 200kg left your got a ball of 130kg for a 70kg driver or 180 ball and 20kg 5 year old driving
This is a 7 seater :(


Look at this example a lot of people will not hear correctly or think the salesman knows nothing and never do the sums thinking its ok mate
Lets look at the Paj Sport as a example someone buys it and a offroad van
The salesman says all our vans are ATM 3500 so you have extra payload if you get a bigger car
You do not need to load it to 3500 your still got 400kg with your Paj Sport
Newbie goes cool 400kg of clothes and food I never fill that not knowing water/gas is included as well.
I love to take the trail bike with us my mate will weld up a ramp on the rear bar sweet. put the 2nd fridge and genny in the toolbox at the front
400kg is a lot no need to weigh the van it does 3500 anyway.

Then look at the Paj Sport it tows lots I be sweet

People mod vans and 4WD some more education be nice. Really not sure what can be done
I think for cars they should make it simpler GCM-GVM is your towing capacity
if you look at Paj Sport max towing GCM-GVM which is 2690.. But hey thats not more then the Everest, Fortuner, Mux or trailblazer7.
Mux GCM 5750 GVM 2750 so its 3000kg
Everest GCM 5800 GVM 3100 so its 2700kg
Fortuner GCM not on website.. from reviews 5545 Auto GVM 2750 = 2795 close to 2.8 rounded up.
Trailblazer GCM 5700.. GVM not on website :( again you need to hunt for this info GVM 2820 = 2795

So if you look at these 5 cars only two have the extra room in GCM for towing full capacity.
And you really think Joe Blow will hunt for figures.. nope it do 3 tonne.

Then I heard the stories of people turning up with captiva's to pick up big vans and the caravan place wants the sale.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Drover

bigcol

Well-Known Member
Nov 22, 2012
6,814
10,164
113
Swan Valley Perth
I don't get how the same chassis, same brakes and "special suspension" with a little blue plate called a GVM upgrade can allow you to tow more. Someone who has more knowledge on this please explain as I am genuinely interested in the science behind it.

here is a conundrum for you @MDS69

GQ Patrol
TD42 - 3500kgs towing max
TB42 - 3500kgs towing max
RD30 - 2500kgs towing max
RB30 - 2500kgs towing max

same chassis, suspension brakes etc, just smaller engine

GU Patrol
TD42 - 3500kgs towing max
TB45 - 3500kgs towing max
TB48 - 3500kgs towing max
RD30 - 2500kgs towing max
ZD30 Manual - 3000kgs towing max
ZD30 Auto - 2500kgs towing max
CRD Manual - 3000kgs towing max
CRD Auto - 2800kgs towing max

the TB48 has the biggest brakes
all have same chassis and suspension, just different engine sizes

why the difference in towing max capacities

mechanical failure
 
  • Like
Reactions: MDS69

Drover

Well-Known Member
Nov 7, 2013
12,739
19,474
113
QLD
Gearbox can play a roll in tow caps also.....................

If a 3.5t tow cap vehicle really can only tow about a 2.9t rig then anything with less is way down the list on what they can really tow....

You said it all @davemc , Salesman says it all, similar to Politician when they are giving you the best deal ever...................

This is a good link to get weights and measures for vehicles including those with official GVM upgrades.... http://myrta.com/rvd/
 
  • Like
Reactions: bigcol

Crusty181

Well-Known Member
Feb 7, 2010
6,854
13,971
113
Mentone, VIC
here is a conundrum for you @MDS69

GQ Patrol
TD42 - 3500kgs towing max
TB42 - 3500kgs towing max
RD30 - 2500kgs towing max
RB30 - 2500kgs towing max

same chassis, suspension brakes etc, just smaller engine

GU Patrol
TD42 - 3500kgs towing max
TB45 - 3500kgs towing max
TB48 - 3500kgs towing max
RD30 - 2500kgs towing max
ZD30 Manual - 3000kgs towing max
ZD30 Auto - 2500kgs towing max
CRD Manual - 3000kgs towing max
CRD Auto - 2800kgs towing max

the TB48 has the biggest brakes
all have same chassis and suspension, just different engine sizes

why the difference in towing max capacities

mechanical failure
Im pretty sure the GU 4.5 auto had a tow capacity of 2.5t ... go figure !!
 

Drover

Well-Known Member
Nov 7, 2013
12,739
19,474
113
QLD
Back in the analogue days I knew of a G60 Patrol that towed a 23ft Millard around and god knows what the weights were but I can tell you when it got a swing up I learnt very quickly and was glad I had listened to my Dad, properly packed it never happened again......No ESC, no digital brakes, Jeep service tyres and a big low thumping 4lt engine and the tightest grip on a wheel ever.........4 kids, dogs and wife alternating between silence and yells of terror..................argh those were the days....proved the tow bar I made was a good one too....... also proved that a big van could push the best FWD around and 3 gears wasn't bluudy enough...........
 

1DayIll

Well-Known Member
Apr 26, 2016
1,000
904
113
59
South Morang, Victoria
This article is from Claytons Towing on the Sunny Coast in QLD, they attend a lot of carvan prangs.......It's a long read and only their opinion but one which I tend to agree with.
Please read it as I think it covers many important topics about towing.

## CARAVAN CRASHES - Our opinion why ##

Swaybars, (weight distribution hitch) another touchy subject. Do any of us have them? No. Do lots of caravans we see rolled have them? Yes. With a heavily loaded towball they can help. If you have low towball weight, we personally consider they make things worse. With their tension they really could provide the opposite result and have a dangerous lifting effect on the rear of your vehicle. If you are getting them, make sure you know what you are doing, know your weights or go to reputable companies who can give you the time to assist in having the right ones. These should not be used as a solution to a problem, only another tool that may help your towing experience. If they are used with limited tow ball weight we really feel you are making things worse.

OK so the question is, should i be using WDH or not?
 

mikerezny

Well-Known Member
Sep 11, 2016
1,630
2,728
113
Mount Waverley, VIC
Back in the analogue days I knew of a G60 Patrol that towed a 23ft Millard around and god knows what the weights were but I can tell you when it got a swing up I learnt very quickly and was glad I had listened to my Dad, properly packed it never happened again......No ESC, no digital brakes, Jeep service tyres and a big low thumping 4lt engine and the tightest grip on a wheel ever.........4 kids, dogs and wife alternating between silence and yells of terror..................argh those were the days....proved the tow bar I made was a good one too....... also proved that a big van could push the best FWD around and 3 gears wasn't bluudy enough...........
Ah @Drover,
that was back in the days when men were men and kangaroos knew their place!

I do miss them!

cheers
Mike
 
  • Like
Reactions: bigcol

Crusty181

Well-Known Member
Feb 7, 2010
6,854
13,971
113
Mentone, VIC
you may be right mate, I never had an auto, so really dont know for sure
A treacherous former friend of mine has one, and I refused to believe it until he pointed out the specs. He's treacherous because he crossed to the dark (Landcruiser) side as his tow vehicle. In his defence that may have hinged on his new 3500kg van. Anyway, last week the head went of his relegated Patrol "commuter" .... karma? Possibly
 
  • Like
Reactions: Drover and bigcol

achjimmy

Well-Known Member
Jan 24, 2011
3,031
3,401
113
I don't get how the same chassis, same brakes and "special suspension" with a little blue plate called a GVM upgrade can allow you to tow more. Someone who has more knowledge on this please explain as I am genuinely interested in the science behind it.


The genius engineer , different suspension and copious amounts of $$$$$
 

achjimmy

Well-Known Member
Jan 24, 2011
3,031
3,401
113
I have the "little blue plate". Most important point is a GVM upgrade has no affect on tow capacity. There is no way in Oz to increase the your vehicles tow capacity. That limit is set in stone by the manufacturer and the design rules dont allow that to be changed. GVM upgrades only raises the vehicles weight carrying capacity.
ahh yes there is. There was a few engineers doing tow capacity as well as gvm increases to the 200 early on 3800/3800 iirc. More recently Lovell's are now offering a 3800kg tow capacity (300kg upgrade ) to 200s who have already had the Lovell's gvm upgrade .
 

Crusty181

Well-Known Member
Feb 7, 2010
6,854
13,971
113
Mentone, VIC
ahh yes there is. There was a few engineers doing tow capacity as well as gvm increases to the 200 early on 3800/3800 iirc. More recently Lovell's are now offering a 3800kg tow capacity (300kg upgrade ) to 200s who have already had the Lovell's gvm upgrade .
After years of planning (clearly not enough planning), the proverbial hit fan for us in very real terms with weights of both car and van only a few months before we were to leave on our extended jaunt. We were basically locked in, with our house, school, business and every other aspect of our lives. Initial panic options were replace the van, replace the car, GVM upgrades and tow cap upgrades. I rang 4 engineers , two of the referred and got the same absolute "no way hose" response. GVM expensive but in theory do-able, but the consensus from them on tow capacity was unanimous.

I'm very very interested in who else does it, because its still very much an option for me.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: bigcol

Lionel

New Member
Mar 27, 2017
4
6
3
61
Western Australia
A few weeks ago I had a GVM upgrade to my 200 ,Lovells springs and shocks installed to 3800k at the same suspension center, a second Stage Manufacturer for the BTC (Braked Towing Capacity) Upgrade of the TOYOTA LANDCRUISER LC200 WAGON. (Build date 11/07 to current) is also available ,Federal Compliance Plate Approval to 4k towing with Lovells components, it's all doable. The GVM upgrade is all about what I can carry in my car, but also helps with the new Van with a dry weight of 3t and ball weight 300kg
 

Crusty181

Well-Known Member
Feb 7, 2010
6,854
13,971
113
Mentone, VIC
  • Like
Reactions: bigcol

achjimmy

Well-Known Member
Jan 24, 2011
3,031
3,401
113
After years of planning (clearly not enough planning), the proverbial hit fan for us in very real terms with weights of both car and van only a few months before we were to leave on our extended jaunt. We were basically locked in, with our house, school, business and every other aspect of our lives. Initial panic options were replace the van, replace the car, GVM upgrades and tow cap upgrades. I rang 4 engineers , two of the referred and got the same absolute "no way hose" response. GVM expensive but in theory do-able, but the consensus from them on tow capacity was unanimous.

I'm very very interested in who else does it, because its still very much an option for me.


No idea who else @Crusty181 but it's available for the 200 series.