18' Series Reducing plated (and real world) ball weight on 18.58-2 OB for Pajero

[PeterV]

Hey peter just for people reading this for the future . The stamped gvm has no relevance on what the tug can tow! You didn't need to get the plate restamped at 2500kg. The Paj can tow a van with 3500kg or more as long as you don't load it past 2500kg or 3000kg (with approximate ball weight)

Thanks @achjimmy. You're absolutely right. I was also thinking that it might make for an easier path if I was unlucky enough to have to make an insurance claim. My reasoning was that if the van was stamped at a weight above the limits of the Pajero then it had the potential complicate and delay any settlement. On reflection, not sure if it would make any difference?

 

[achjimmy]

Thanks @achjimmy. You're absolutely right. I was also thinking that it might make for an easier path if I was unlucky enough to have to make an insurance claim. My reasoning was that if the van was stamped at a weight above the limits of the Pajero then it had the potential complicate and delay any settlement. On reflection, not sure if it would make any difference?

Yeah I think the whole insurance scare thing is a web furphy. How many people have you ever known who gets insurance refused? I don't mean friends sisters, wives girlfriends but actually acquaintances? In my life I've known one and it was 30 years ago and they called him in insurance fraud ! He later got done for bike theft and fraud. Other than that I know of a few people who have been overly fairly treated including us with two house claims. All insurance companies tend to do today is pay no issues then adjust everybodies premium to get it back!

 

[Maximage]

@achjimmy What you are on about is exactly my predicament. Given there is only 2 of us with a toddler, and this model has a rather generous 450kg payload, I am pretty confident we would be sitting under the magical 2500kg anyway when we travel as most of the time we would travel without water, and if needing water to camp remote, there is a few items that would be coning out of the camper too as they wouldn't be required in that scenario. I am sure we could either be under 2500 or conversely, balance the van with a few adjustments so the ball is correct. Problem is if there is ever an issue and things start to be argued, or slowed down as the insurance "investigates". Am likely worried about nothing, but trying to work out what the risks are versus the hassles of getting back under that magical line. Problem is it falls into that grey area due to the variable ball limits. It's not like it's completely outside it and I'm trying to pull an empty van that weighs 3500 with a ball weight of 300 or something silly. Weight is nicely within its pulling threshold, its just the variable ball weight that is the concern, which it is right on the edge of the lower limit.

@PeterV Interestingly, the 18.58.2 actually has a lower ball rating than the 17.56.2, maybe due to the extra cupboards and larger bathroom at the rear cantilevering it?

 

[t0ne]

My ball weight on my 18.58 came in at over 200Kg's aswell, i ended up getting a landcruiser so i could tow legally.

If worried drop down to the 17.56

 

[twscoot]

Or a 17.58-3 Starcraft? http://www.jayco.com.au/range/pop-tops/starcraft/

 

[Maximage]

Or a 17.58-3 Starcraft?

Thanks but nah. If we were to go down in size due to this, then would likely go the Expanda 16.49-3. Do prefer the seperate toilet and shower of the 18 Expanda, so if we had to give that up plus the extra bed, it would then still be the Expanda, same kind of floor space as the 17 Starcraft, similar shower over toilet ensuite, and you end up with a double bed at the rear end rather than squeeze bunks like the Starcraft.

Although, that $6k saving on the Starcraft 17 over the Expanda 16 does buy a lot of aftermarket extras ...

 

[GC Caravan Hire]

Our 18.58-2 ob (2016) came in at 179kg on the ball weight, so just sneaks under th pajero limits. Only really option on ours, that may have assisted to pull the weight down is the washing machine ? ATM 2710kg. We tow with at 2012 new Pajero

 

[millers]

Do not know how to make Jayco give you a correct ball weight as it does not seem to be obvious how it is calculated. You would hope (think) that if you gave them the model and options they would be able to calculate empty weights within 5kg or less. They have built a few and know where all the options go and their weights. So I assume the first thing is to go to a Jayco dealer and get him to weigh the van you want and also the ball weight. If they have more than one then get them to do them all (plus the members here who have provided weights of their vans).

My opinion of the plate weights is that these are the limits that are not to be exceeded for the van before you become illegal. They are not the limits that are used to determine if your car can pull it (unless one of the minimum values is over eg tare) . The actual weights are those that are applied to the tow. If you are in any doubt (and may be always) you need to actually weigh everything (at least once) to know what you are towing.

To be legal the actual weights need to be within vans limits and the cars limits and meet the braking rules. If there is doubt then have it all weighed. If ball weight is a consideration then I would (and have) a ball weight scale that I would use to check each time I hitch up (and record). For me it is not an issue as I am towing a 16 at present.

I am assuming that all the other values for the car are ok (Gross and Combined), it is just the ball weight de-rating of the tow mass that is the issue.

 

[NoWorries]

My ball weight on the Expanda plate is 185 but when I took it to the weighbridge is came in with 221
I did have a 2014 Paj and ended up getting a 200 series as the Paj was up to towing it on the open road but did not like it much at all in the corrugations and rough stuff.

Must be noted that mine is a 2012 full height 18ft but weighs less than the newer 18ft due to having normal suspension

 

[Maximage]

Cheers @GC Caravan Hire, that's what I want to hear. I know it's possible, it's just a pain trying to figure out how and why some slide under that magical line.

@millers Thanks for advice. Yes, trying to stay both legal and safe, and realise they aren't always the same.

The Paj has kerb mass of 2255kg, and a GVM of 3030, so payload of 775kg. We have done a fair few mods many of which would make minimal weight difference, such as upgraded suspension with better springs, shocks and airbags, CB, spotted, light bar etc, but also bullbar, winch, 2nd battery and full bash plates which would add a bit. I really need to weigh the car, however lets call it 200kg to be extra extra safe, and it wouldn't be anywhere near that. Add myself, wife, toddler and 90 kilos of fuel, and we can call it 2750, leaving 280kg spare. Take off the 180kg of trailer ball mass and it still gives us 100kg of lugage capacity.

The Paj is one of the few cars these days where a full weight trailer does *NOT* deduct from the cars capacity. I.e., GVM is 3030kg, and GCM is 6030, so car have a full weight trailer AND a fully loaded car.

So on to the trailer side, dry it is rated at 2210kg. We travel fairly light and don't take a crap load of stuff with is. Usually, we travel to van parks so will be without water. We often even just buy our food at a supermarket once we get to wherever we are going, so frequently even have a mostly empty fridge. Given that, I would say most of the time the van would be under 2500kg so the ball weight could be up to 250kg on the Paj. Problem occurs *if* we were to camp remotely. Then we would be carrying water etc, however if free camping, it would only be for 2 to 3 days, so even then wouldn't be taking anything like gennies or any of that kind of weight.

I am pretty certain I could safely pack and balance the van to stay at that 180 ball weight area, it is more what the actual placard actually says bs real life and ho many issues that could potentially cause.

The car is rated to tow up to 3 tonne, so we know the car can pull it (though I would never want to go near max weight) and we would be traveling 400 to 500 below that limit. The engine can pull it easily at 2.5odd tonne (plus we have a 3" exhaust and chip), and it can certainly stop it too at the other end of the spectrum. Hell, the Paj has the exact same braking system as the LC200, so that aspect is all good.

It can take a ball weight of up to 250kg, and we won't be anywhere near that either, it is purely the reduced ball weight of 180kg over 2500kg. We do have a ball scale and I would def be using that until I am comfy with packing balance. We would also be getting ESC which would assist if I ever shifted anything too far back, however would only ever want to rely on that as a fail safe, if I ever felt the load was too far back and it was a pendulum risk I would adjust again accordingly.

The exact same Mitsi bar when fitted to the SWB is rated for a flat 3tonne/250kg, there is no de-rating over 2.5 tonne. Now either that is due to the arms of the bar being bolted further forward on the chassis due to the shorter bum, or it's a leverage issue on the rear suspension, which I am inclined to lean towards.

There are shops over east selling engineered solutions to over ride the de-rating so you simply have a flat 3 tonne/250kg rating and all they consist of is a suspension upgrade. Much like a GVM upgrade for an LC200 etc.

I have read of one Expanda owner having their Paj re-engineered with suspension and also a modified toe at that mounted further forward in the chassis, however in this instance they increased the tow capacity to 3100kg AND upped the ball load to 300KG.

So all up, the car can safely handle it as it is well below it's pulling capacity, and I know I can pack it to hit that de-rated ball weight, and given we have upgraded suspension etc to match the engineered solutions, I am happy with all that.

It just comes down to tying to keep the placards for both the car and van matching to reduce risk of hassles. If we were ever weighed, I am confident I could fall within all limits in real life with some smart balancing of loads.

 

[Maximage]

Cheers @NoWorries , a tad worrying being that drastic, however it appears that they have improved on the accuracy lately from what I have seen, still some discrepancy but not as drastic as it used to be. Was that 221kg loaded or empty?

We really want to avoid changing cars at this stage as I know everything will be safe, and well within limits in real life, both placarded and safety, it's just the possibility of hassles if we come across someone on a power trip or the likes.

We did look at an LC200 when we bought the Paj a couple of years back, but since I drive a work supplied car, we only have one car and it's the wife's daily. She didn't want something the size of a 200. We have also spent somewhere between 15 and 20k customing the Paj, so certainly don't want to walk away from that too soon.

That said, my olds have bought a 200 about a year ago, and I think she is slowly warming to the idea that it really isn't that much bigger in the scheme of things, so I do suspect it will be out next car in a couple of years.