Electrical inverter and generator safety, RCD not tripping

[ShaneT]

Story
I was playing around with my inverter in the van and one of theses RCD checkers http://www.jaycar.com.au/Test-&-Mea...ntact/Power-Point-and-Leakage-Tester/p/QP2000
and found out It wouldnt trip the RCD.
After doing some googling I found out that the same would happen with my generator as neither are earthed (to the ground).
After some more google time I found this relatively new safety switch, its a RVD, now Im not sure why they are not standard on all vans as not all of us plug into caravan parks.
But here is the link to the site I got it from
http://www.safelec.com.au/store/p43/RCD/RVD-EMR.html
and some reading
http://www.safelec.com.au/vehicle--rv.html
Its not fitted yet but all you do is pull out the standed RCD and the new RVD RCD combo fits straight in giving you 100% safety in any situation, not just in most situations like a RCD and not at all when using a inverter or generator.
Just thought I would put it out there as if I didnt plug in that tester just for something to do I would of never known, and at $190 to my door its crazy cheap insurance for my family.
I will let you know how it goes and throw up some pics soon.
Heres some more info,http://caravanersforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8782&start=60
If you stick with it and keep reading (which is hard on this forum due to the large amount of d@#kheads on there) you will see what it is all about.

 

[AndrewC]

I am a sparky and have fitted one to my van. They are a great device and like you said, the offer great protection from isolated supplies such as inverters and generators.

Basically instead of looking for an indifference In Current like and rcd, they are actually looking for an earth voltage rise and shunt trip the protection device.

Great idea and I would love to see them in as many vans as possible

 

[Meanderthals]

Had one fitted last week. The Electrician who I asked to fit it was impressed with what it does. Fitted in the van existing spot with no modifications. Have recommended the Electrician to Safelec to see about him being a local installer. I first read about it on that same Forum and agree about the negative commentary, especially from some who wouldn't even specify their electrical expertise.

 

[Capt. Gadget]

@AndrewC would earthing the genny make the RCD work correctly?

 

[AndrewC]

Some yes and some no. Generally the ones that caravanners use are if isolated type so I would advise against it.

 

[ShaneT]

Great idea and I would love to see them in as many vans as possible

+1
Im not really posting it up to ask if I should or wether its worth doing (I know that sounds rude, but its not ment to)
Im just putting it out there to let others know they are not covered by the RCD while free camping off inverters and gennys (although I wish some people were bitten by there cheap ass gennys while free camping) and even it they do use parks there is a better option out there.

 

[Dotcom7]

I got mine from Aussie Solar and Batteries for $149. Great device.
http://www.aussiebatteries.com.au/?rf=kw&kw=rcd

 

[ShaneT]

Nice find Dean. Does that fit into the standard box? looks wider than the safelec one

 

[Dotcom7]

Shane this one is a 20amp one so it is 3 pole not a 2 pole 10amp one like the safelec one. Most vans with a microwave, aircon or Elect Hotwater will have a 20 amp circuit breaker already installed so you need to replace with the same rated RCD/RVD. You can buy a 3 pole box from any elec wholesalers for $5-$10 so not dear at all.

 

[ShaneT]

Hmm mine was a 16amp one and the Safelec one I put in is also 16 amp. I wonder why your breaker was 20 and mine 16? I'm not a sparky but why would you have a 15amp inlet on the van and a 20 amp breaker?
Safelec does do a 20amp aswell, but I dont know if it fits in the standard box. Safelec was really quick with his emails. He rang me 30min after I sent him the email it was just after 7pm there but I missed the call so he emailed just to check what size I wanted as I just said I wanted one for my van.
This was his email

Hi Shane

I need to confirm your application to be sure the RVD-EMR is the correct product .

I tried your number but got a recorded message.

The RVD-EMR-16A is normally used at the inlet to your van in place of the Double Pole Breaker required by law and it then allows you to plug in a generator or mains power with safety and also gives reverse polarity protection by shutting down safely if you plug in at any-time to a reversed polarity supply.

If this is what you want then we are happy if not please explain what you need to protect.

The RVD-EMR-16A is $190 including GST and Delivery to your address.

Kind Regards

Ian Martin

RV Powerstream P/L

Safelec Technology P/L

 

[ShaneT]

Nice quick install. Very happy, now the tester trips it out as it should.

pic straight after the sparky did the screws up

 

[Dotcom7]

Hmm mine was a 16amp one and the Safelec one I put in is also 16 amp. I wonder why your breaker was 20 and mine 16? I'm not a sparky but why would you have a 15amp inlet on the van and a 20 amp breaker?
Safelec does do a 20amp aswell, but I dont know if it fits in the standard box. Safelec was really quick with his emails. He rang me 30min after I sent him the email it was just after 7pm there but I missed the call so he emailed just to check what size I wanted as I just said I wanted one for my van.
This was his email

Hi Shane

I need to confirm your application to be sure the RVD-EMR is the correct product .

I tried your number but got a recorded message.

The RVD-EMR-16A is normally used at the inlet to your van in place of the Double Pole Breaker required by law and it then allows you to plug in a generator or mains power with safety and also gives reverse polarity protection by shutting down safely if you plug in at any-time to a reversed polarity supply.

If this is what you want then we are happy if not please explain what you need to protect.

The RVD-EMR-16A is $190 including GST and Delivery to your address.

Kind Regards

Ian Martin

RV Powerstream P/L

Safelec Technology P/L

Shane im not sure mate why my van had a 20amp circuit breaker in it when i bought it new 6 months ago from Jayco. I'm no sparky either so I cant answer that. Why would they sell RVD's greater than 15amp to suit caravans if thats the size plug coming in is only 15amp rated.
My sparky mate who installed the RVD told me to put the 20amp the same that came out.
Are their any sparkys here who can answer this question why a 20amp circuit breaker would be put in a van that runs off a 15 amp inlet?
Maybe 15amp circuits are rated for 20amp peak max rating but are rated to run 15 amp all day?

 

[Soaring]

Heres some more info,http://caravanersforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8782&start=60
If you stick with it and keep reading (which is hard on this forum due to the large amount of d@#kheads on there) you will see what it is all about.

While not related to this subject, I have come across that forum a few times while googling for something. The amount of pedantic bitching and squabbling would put a hen house to shame. The same occurs on a few Facebook Camping groups I watch. Seriously unbelievable.
What it does do is reinforce what a great forum we have here, and what a magnificent job the mods do. ( Actually I don't think they do much, because we are such a great bunch, but shhhh!)
Anyway, continue.

 

[relgate]

While not related to this subject, I have come across that forum a few times while googling for something. The amount of pedantic bitching and squabbling would put a hen house to shame. The same occurs on a few Facebook Camping groups I watch. Seriously unbelievable.
What it does do is reinforce what a great forum we have here, and what a magnificent job the mods do. ( Actually I don't think they do much, because we are such a great bunch, but shhhh!)
Anyway, continue.

Get back on topic!


Lol

 

[dagree]

Get back on topic!
Lol

But going there requires a big bucket opcorn:
OK :focus:

 

[dagree]

Shane im not sure mate why my van had a 20amp circuit breaker in it when i bought it new 6 months ago from Jayco. I'm no sparky either so I cant answer that. Why would they sell RVD's greater than 15amp to suit caravans if thats the size plug coming in is only 15amp rated.
My sparky mate who installed the RVD told me to put the 20amp the same that came out.
Are their any sparkys here who can answer this question why a 20amp circuit breaker would be put in a van that runs off a 15 amp inlet?
Maybe 15amp circuits are rated for 20amp peak max rating but are rated to run 15 amp all day?

Will ask one of our sparkies at work when I catch up with them @Dean Leek

 

[Soaring]

Get back on topic!


Lol

Lol, See how easy it was to get the mods to do some work......

 

[Dotcom7]

Shane i just spoke to the sparkie that installed mine and he said " My van wiring is 2.5mm wire which is rated to 20amps so safely I can run a 20amp breaker. The circuit breaker is to protect the van wiring so 20amp or lower is okay to use. It doesnt matter if you have a 15 amp cable coming in as the circuit from which the 15 amp cable in runs from will be circuit protected at that point (15amp circuit breaker at the plug in post in caravan park) This protects the lead from them to you so you dont pull more than 15amps off them.) So really even with the 20 amp circuit breaker in my van if I pulled more than 15amp the supply breaker at the power source will trip anyway. So my wiring will never see 20 amps (unless it shorts out) even though the wiring is rated for it. He said alot of vans he works on have 20 amp breakers in them as they all should have 2.5mm wiring. He said he has also seen a fair few with 16 amp breakers aswell. There is no problem de rating down to 16 amp he said. It is probably a cost saving with a smaller rated breaker and the source is only rated to 15 amp anyway...
Interesting....

 

[Axl]

Great find @ShaneT and thanks for sharing, I have had concerns around running my van on a generator ever since I read that there is the potential risk of the the circuit breaker not to working in this situation.

I am not a sparkie and I don’t understand why the breaker may not work but it would seem to me that if you want to use a generator then this unit is dam cheap added insurance for what it has the potential to do.

I know plenty of people run their vans of generators every day and there have been very few if any documented problems but if the risk is there and it can be eliminated by such a simple fix then why wouldn’t you do it.

I will be putting on of these units in my Expanda as soon as I can.

 

[achjimmy]

Great find @ShaneT and thanks for sharing, I have had concerns around running my van on a generator ever since I read that there is the potential risk of the the circuit breaker not to working in this situation.

I am not a sparkie and I don’t understand why the breaker may not work but it would seem to me that if you want to use a generator then this unit is dam cheap added insurance for what it has the potential to do.

I know plenty of people run their vans of generators every day and there have been very few if any documented problems but if the risk is there and it can be eliminated by such a simple fix then why wouldn’t you do it.

I will be putting on of these units in my Expanda as soon as I can.

Yeah that covers it for me axl, Imagine being the first

Shane i just spoke to the sparkie that installed mine and he said " My van wiring is 2.5mm wire which is rated to 20amps so safely I can run a 20amp breaker. The circuit breaker is to protect the van wiring so 20amp or lower is okay to use. It doesnt matter if you have a 15 amp cable coming in as the circuit from which the 15 amp cable in runs from will be circuit protected at that point (15amp circuit breaker at the plug in post in caravan park) This protects the lead from them to you so you dont pull more than 15amps off them.) So really even with the 20 amp circuit breaker in my van if I pulled more than 15amp the supply breaker at the power source will trip anyway. So my wiring will never see 20 amps (unless it shorts out) even though the wiring is rated for it. He said alot of vans he works on have 20 amp breakers in them as they all should have 2.5mm wiring. He said he has also seen a fair few with 16 amp breakers aswell. There is no problem de rating down to 16 amp he said. It is probably a cost saving with a smaller rated breaker and the source is only rated to 15 amp anyway...
Interesting....

In house wiring 2.5mm is even higher, up near 28-30amps. But the 3 core stuff Jayco use in that CMS system is only rated to 20amps so maybe it's not 2.5mm2 ?

If you are to follow this info on the DIY CMS system it insists it being rated to 16amps? Can't see a 20amp breaker being a biggie tbh

http://caravansplus.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=11059