Electrical Electric brakes

[warren cook]

ok, so spoke with Red Arc just now.

The system works off inertia so will automatically adjust the break level needed based on level of inertia. In Automatic mode with the Blue light on the system is designed to do it all for you once you have it set on the dial for required amount of brakes. Once set there is no need to touch unless the need to override it.

He agrees that I should not have to adjust the dial after exiting the freeway and that the system is designed to automatically detect the amount of brake needed to come to a comfortable stop.

Possible reasons:

1. As mentioned above by some, the brakes are hot and have expanded, very plausible as my van is only 3 months old and probably only done 1500-2000 k's so I can understand this.

Fix: Leaving home lower the setting from 5 (as he says that is towards the higher end needed) to around 4.5 and then see how it is when I come off the freeway (funny as this is the setting I have to drop it to stop the grabbing)

Early Verdict: Maybe my in experience is causing the problem by having it on the wrong setting to begin with.

2. Check that the unit is secured correctly and not loose as this effects the calibration. Unit is secured fine.

I take the van away next week so time will tell, update later.

Thanks for the tips and patience guys.

Wozza.

 

[bigcol]

good stuff

Early Verdict: Maybe my in experience is causing the problem by having it on the wrong setting to begin with.

mmmmmmmmmm

had not thought of that one.............

 

[warren cook]

good stuff



mmmmmmmmmm

had not thought of that one.............

Maybe when the pads have worn a little more there will be more play so I probably wont notice the pads expanding so much in the future and all will be good.

1st world problems hey!!!

 

[bigcol]

1st world problems hey!!!

at least you didnt plaster all over faceache that their product was crap..............(or did you........?????)

some of the things I have read on some of the faceache pages, you have to shake your head and wonder
"if it was not automatic - would these people know how to breathe in and breathe out..............??

 

[Bellbirdweb]

ok, so spoke with Red Arc just now.

The system works off inertia so will automatically adjust the break level needed based on level of inertia. In Automatic mode with the Blue light on the system is designed to do it all for you once you have it set on the dial for required amount of brakes. Once set there is no need to touch unless the need to override it.

He agrees that I should not have to adjust the dial after exiting the freeway and that the system is designed to automatically detect the amount of brake needed to come to a comfortable stop.

Possible reasons:

1. As mentioned above by some, the brakes are hot and have expanded, very plausible as my van is only 3 months old and probably only done 1500-2000 k's so I can understand this.

Fix: Leaving home lower the setting from 5 (as he says that is towards the higher end needed) to around 4.5 and then see how it is when I come off the freeway (funny as this is the setting I have to drop it to stop the grabbing)

Early Verdict: Maybe my in experience is causing the problem by having it on the wrong setting to begin with.

2. Check that the unit is secured correctly and not loose as this effects the calibration. Unit is secured fine.

I take the van away next week so time will tell, update later.

Thanks for the tips and patience guys.

Wozza.

Interesting that he doesn't think it needs to be adjusted.

My van is 2 1/2 years old and I've found it necessary to change it every time I tow.

It's usually only 1 click one way or the other but it certainly changes based on how long and fast I've been towing, hence the temperature theory.

I've never needed to go above 4 or below 3.

I don't think you've actually got a problem, but keep using it a bit longer and make sure you're comfortable.

I originally had a fully manual Hayman Reese controller which I was always needing to fiddle with, so moving to the towpro with the proportional control was like moving to some magical wonder system in comparison, so I really love it.

 

[warren cook]

Rule's I try to live and work by is to not jump the gun and explore all options before making a decision. Man up to your own mistakes and there are always 3 sides to every story, mine, yours and the truth is generally how it goes.

Even if I thought something was bad or crappy I wouldn't waste my time complaining about it as it does not change anything anyway, however if I was asked my opinion on that same thing I wouldn't hold back either.

I am more of the optimistic type of guy, even during a S@!t storm the ground is still being fertilized right!,

Don't have time for haters, I can make my own mind up on something and generally there is always more to it when you dig a little deeper.

 

[Doc]

From what I've read, the symptoms described are inherent to the style of electric brakes we all have fitted to our vans.

The brakes are "twin shoe leading and trailing edge" drum brakes. These do not "bite" as hard as twin leading shoe drums, but are simpler and cheaper to manufacture. They also work perfectly well in the majority of circumstances...

Anyway, to my point. At highway speeds, we need a little higher voltage applied to the braking system through our controller in order to provide us with the initial feel of 'bite' that we require. At lower (urban) speeds, we need a reduced amount of voltage initially - otherwise the commonly described 'grabbing' occurs.

My understanding of the redarc towpro controller (and I could be wrong!!!) is that when you turn up the knob to get better bite at highway speeds, you also increase the initial voltage applied by the controller when a braking event is initiated.

The other way is to have a 'boost' control - only the Prodigy P3 and the Hayman Reese Compact IQ offer this function. The 'boost' setting is the initial voltage applied - you set that separately to the MAXIMUM voltage applied to the brakes.

Neither system is perfect. In an ideal world, both require the user to change a setting between 'high speed' and 'low speed' use in order to achieve the best possible braking effort from the van. In reality, most users probably don't change the config between highway and urban usage. On controllers with a 'boost' setting, the user can adjust the initial voltage applied without affecting the max voltage applied. On others (eg the redarc tow pro) that is not possible. I know I don't change my boost setting - mainly because the size and weight of the tow vehicle means it doesn't get 'pushed around' by the van anywhere near as much as with lighter rigs.

My thoughts - get used to changing the brake setting between highway and urban usage.

Hope the info helps and wasn't a hindrance.

 

[warren cook]

Interesting that he doesn't think it needs to be adjusted.

My van is 2 1/2 years old and I've found it necessary to change it every time I tow.

It's usually only 1 click one way or the other but it certainly changes based on how long and fast I've been towing, hence the temperature theory.

I've never needed to go above 4 or below 3.

I don't think you've actually got a problem, but keep using it a bit longer and make sure you're comfortable.

I originally had a fully manual Hayman Reese controller which I was always needing to fiddle with, so moving to the towpro with the proportional control was like moving to some magical wonder system in comparison, so I really love it.

I am now comfortable with the outcome and will put it down to user error. Will lower the setting for sure next time. I am surprised at how 1 click makes such a difference

I've never had one before so have nothing to compare too, I can only assume they previously had a manual setting dialled in and it would apply that amount of brake pressure irrespective of speed, almost like a light switch thing On or Off, no in between. You want more brake, turn the dial up, you want less, turn it down mentality.

 

[warren cook]

From what I've read, the symptoms described are inherent to the style of electric brakes we all have fitted to our vans.

The brakes are "twin shoe leading and trailing edge" drum brakes. These do not "bite" as hard as twin leading shoe drums, but are simpler and cheaper to manufacture. They also work perfectly well in the majority of circumstances...

Anyway, to my point. At highway speeds, we need a little higher voltage applied to the braking system through our controller in order to provide us with the initial feel of 'bite' that we require. At lower (urban) speeds, we need a reduced amount of voltage initially - otherwise the commonly described 'grabbing' occurs.

My understanding of the redarc towpro controller (and I could be wrong!!!) is that when you turn up the knob to get better bite at highway speeds, you also increase the initial voltage applied by the controller when a braking event is initiated.

The other way is to have a 'boost' control - only the Prodigy P3 and the Hayman Reese Compact IQ offer this function. The 'boost' setting is the initial voltage applied - you set that separately to the MAXIMUM voltage applied to the brakes.

Neither system is perfect. In an ideal world, both require the user to change a setting between 'high speed' and 'low speed' use in order to achieve the best possible braking effort from the van. In reality, most users probably don't change the config between highway and urban usage. On controllers with a 'boost' setting, the user can adjust the initial voltage applied without affecting the max voltage applied. On others (eg the redarc tow pro) that is not possible. I know I don't change my boost setting - mainly because the size and weight of the tow vehicle means it doesn't get 'pushed around' by the van anywhere near as much as with lighter rigs.

My thoughts - get used to changing the brake setting between highway and urban usage.

Hope the info helps and wasn't a hindrance.

From what I've read, the symptoms described are inherent to the style of electric brakes we all have fitted to our vans.

The brakes are "twin shoe leading and trailing edge" drum brakes. These do not "bite" as hard as twin leading shoe drums, but are simpler and cheaper to manufacture. They also work perfectly well in the majority of circumstances...

Anyway, to my point. At highway speeds, we need a little higher voltage applied to the braking system through our controller in order to provide us with the initial feel of 'bite' that we require. At lower (urban) speeds, we need a reduced amount of voltage initially - otherwise the commonly described 'grabbing' occurs.

My understanding of the redarc towpro controller (and I could be wrong!!!) is that when you turn up the knob to get better bite at highway speeds, you also increase the initial voltage applied by the controller when a braking event is initiated.

The other way is to have a 'boost' control - only the Prodigy P3 and the Hayman Reese Compact IQ offer this function. The 'boost' setting is the initial voltage applied - you set that separately to the MAXIMUM voltage applied to the brakes.

Neither system is perfect. In an ideal world, both require the user to change a setting between 'high speed' and 'low speed' use in order to achieve the best possible braking effort from the van. In reality, most users probably don't change the config between highway and urban usage. On controllers with a 'boost' setting, the user can adjust the initial voltage applied without affecting the max voltage applied. On others (eg the redarc tow pro) that is not possible. I know I don't change my boost setting - mainly because the size and weight of the tow vehicle means it doesn't get 'pushed around' by the van anywhere near as much as with lighter rigs.

My thoughts - get used to changing the brake setting between highway and urban usage.

Hope the info helps and wasn't a hindrance.

My thoughts - get used to changing the brake setting between highway and urban usage

Agreed. Next rip out will be lower setting and see from there.

Cheers @Doc

 

[Doc]

<snip> I can only assume they previously had a manual setting dialled in and it would apply that amount of brake pressure irrespective of speed, almost like a light switch thing On or Off, no in between. You want more brake, turn the dial up, you want less, turn it down mentality.

Hey mate,
Older controllers work pretty much exactly as you described - they had two settings usually - one for voltage, one for time. The voltage controller determined the max voltage to be provided to the electric brakes. The time controller determined the 'ramp up interval' - the period of time the controller took to ramp up from zero volts to what was configured in the previous step.

Scary, but plenty of basic controllers never even had a 'timer' setting! They just ramped up to the set voltage over whatever interval was set by the maker of the controller!

 

[warren cook]

Hey mate,
Older controllers work pretty much exactly as you described - they had two settings usually - one for voltage, one for time. The voltage controller determined the max voltage to be provided to the electric brakes. The time controller determined the 'ramp up interval' - the period of time the controller took to ramp up from zero volts to what was configured in the previous step.

Scary, but plenty of basic controllers never even had a 'timer' setting! They just ramped up to the set voltage over whatever interval was set by the maker of the controller!

Sounds like that could have been dangerous in the wrong hands.

 

[Bellbirdweb]

Hey mate,
Older controllers work pretty much exactly as you described - they had two settings usually - one for voltage, one for time. The voltage controller determined the max voltage to be provided to the electric brakes. The time controller determined the 'ramp up interval' - the period of time the controller took to ramp up from zero volts to what was configured in the previous step.

Scary, but plenty of basic controllers never even had a 'timer' setting! They just ramped up to the set voltage over whatever interval was set by the maker of the controller!

Thats what I had when I first got our van, having towed a 1.5 tonne horse float initially.

The only reason I changed was because I found out that the old Hayman Reese controller was not compatible with the ESC on the van, but so glad I did.

 

[jeff]

Happy with the discussion here and have know a better understanding. I contacted REDARC by email and this was their reply.

"Thank you for your enquiry. The output power from the Tow Pro is proportional how hard the vehicle is decellerating (this may not necessarily be proportional to how hard you push on the pedal). 4-5 is a good starting point. If you feel the trailer/van is braking too much, turn it to a lower setting, or if you feel it is not braking enough, turn it to a higher setting. Once you have found a setting where it feels like there is no trailer/van behind you when braking (or some setting you feel comfortable with), note the number and use that setting. If you vary the load significantly or change to a different trailer, you may need a different setting. This will depend on factors such as trailer weight, number of brake axles, brake adjustment, type of brakes (electromagnet or electric/hydraulic) and even the grade of brake linings/pads, all of which affect brake effectiveness. A proportional brake controller senses vehicle deceleration and supplies braking power accordingly, but it can not measure any of those other factors, so the driver should set it to give the desired amount of braking"

 

[warren cook]

Happy with the discussion here and have know a better understanding. I contacted REDARC by email and this was their reply.

"Thank you for your enquiry. The output power from the Tow Pro is proportional how hard the vehicle is decellerating (this may not necessarily be proportional to how hard you push on the pedal). 4-5 is a good starting point. If you feel the trailer/van is braking too much, turn it to a lower setting, or if you feel it is not braking enough, turn it to a higher setting. Once you have found a setting where it feels like there is no trailer/van behind you when braking (or some setting you feel comfortable with), note the number and use that setting. If you vary the load significantly or change to a different trailer, you may need a different setting. This will depend on factors such as trailer weight, number of brake axles, brake adjustment, type of brakes (electromagnet or electric/hydraulic) and even the grade of brake linings/pads, all of which affect brake effectiveness. A proportional brake controller senses vehicle deceleration and supplies braking power accordingly, but it can not measure any of those other factors, so the driver should set it to give the desired amount of braking"

Excellent @jeff,

Good feedback. I will lower the setting and adjust when needed. Glad you've got your head around the whole thing too.

 

[warren cook]

Ok all good, had the braking level set to 4 and a click and all good, felt fine on normal roads. Left it for freeway and stil all good. Came of the freeway and almost no grabbing at all but backed it off a click and felt perfect.

So in summary all my fault for having it on too high a setting from the beginning. Learning experience accomplished.

 

[Drover]

Thats what the instructions on my set up tells you to do..................................

 

[Dean Anderson]

I've had a Tekonsha P3 previous to the TowPro Elite and found that good trailer braking in all conditions is not automatic on either. Both work well on a flat. Neither is totally independent of the driver when going down a range. I find it difficult to use either with no van lockups or heating of the car brakes without continuous driver input in some conditions. On a steep decline that varies both use inertia as a sensor so they pick up when you jamb on the brakes, but not when you use a steady brake input due to gradient.

I have found that automatic will only work satisfactorily if you use the tow vehicles gears to slow the vehicle to the required speed when going down a range and prefer manual on the brake controller...

I have had a scary experience with the TowPro on automatic going down a range when it faulted and I was left with no van brakes and smoke pouring off the rear brakes of the car...No where to pull over and change the setting to manual....

In manual you need to adjust the setting constantly down some ranges due to varying gradient and cornering. On the TowPro you have 10 settings...On the Tekonsha four (1+3boost)...TowPro is easy for the driver to adjust...Tekonsha you really need a passenger to change settings so you can keep your eyes on the road...Tekonsha lever override is variable braking and great....TowPro is just on or off... Tekonsha is a pain to positionon on the dash..TowPro is great...

No present brake controller is set and forget....It can't sense how good your trailer brakes are...how much weight is in the van....what the road surface is....is the road wet....what tyres you have on the van...the corner that's coming up....etc..etc...

What' the best? I dunno.....:violin:

 

[Drover]

Big hills I knock down a few gears and if really steep may end up in 1st or 2nd and use van brakes manually sometimes even try to alternate between tug and van brakes, so one set gets a bit of cool down, nothing worse than feeling the brake fade coming on..........but always use the gears for most of the time, save the brakes for that time when the little valve starts to tighten big time.