Here's an earlier thread covering similar stuff.................http://expandasdownunder.com/threads/inverter-and-generator-safety-rcd-not-tripping.7013/
Electrical Does an inverter require grounding?
- Thread starter Tripper
- Start date
How do you plan to setup your system Clewsy? Are you using a generator or inverter, are you plugging into the external mains in on the van or just using a power board or a couple of points?
I think the reason they are not better known is that there is some doubt over them being needed.
RCD’s should protect the circuits even where there is no earth.
I’m going to put a RCD tester on my Setup when running off all 3 sources (Mains, Generator and Inverter) and will detail the results.
Haha, no not yet, I need to dig out the tester and get into the van.Hey Bellbirdweb have you got those results yet.
I for one will be very interested in your findings when you get the time to check. Got to love this site for the people that don't mind helping out without all the BS you have to go though on other sites.
Might get to it over the weekend
Be very interesting to see........While RCD's are a great device I have hardly heard of people getting curly hair in their vans and for that matter from gennies, except for the blatantly stupid ........If it was common RVDs would be mandatory, since my ignition system in my petrol ute can fry me just as easily as my 240 toaster do I need a similar device.
If you rent a house in Canberra you can still have a wire fuse, no circuit breakers let alone an RCD, so a van is safer....
Don't get me wrong, I believe RCD and RVD should be mandatory nationwide in houses and RVs, there's just too many idiots....
If you rent a house in Canberra you can still have a wire fuse, no circuit breakers let alone an RCD, so a van is safer....
Don't get me wrong, I believe RCD and RVD should be mandatory nationwide in houses and RVs, there's just too many idiots....
I believe the issue gets worse the more three pole items you have plugged into the van. As I have said I am not a sparky and I don't understand electrikity very well but I've read that the first three pole item is the power lead itself then the more you plug in the less chance of the RCD working. There is a lot of info over at another forum ill see if I can dig some up.
I believe below in blue explains what I was trying to above. Many people on other forums and other sites look at this subject along the lines of "you probably have more chances of winning the lotto than getting a shock" but hey PEOPLE WIN THE LOTTO EVERY WEEK.
The multiple device limitation is more due to the design of an isolated supply. The same principle is applicable to most small generators.
An isolated supply doesn't have an active and neutral in the traditional sense, as there is no earth reference. Both lines are considered floating and the earth pin isn't actually connected to anything.
Now if a single item develops an internal short, the overload protection will operate and the supply shuts off. If you have multiple devices, and one develops a fault to the 'active' side and the other to the 'neutral' side, the supply will keep chugging along quite happily, but if you touch both faulty appliances at the same time, it's good night to you. Remember RCD's are ineffective on isolated supplies.
I believe below in blue explains what I was trying to above. Many people on other forums and other sites look at this subject along the lines of "you probably have more chances of winning the lotto than getting a shock" but hey PEOPLE WIN THE LOTTO EVERY WEEK.
The multiple device limitation is more due to the design of an isolated supply. The same principle is applicable to most small generators.
An isolated supply doesn't have an active and neutral in the traditional sense, as there is no earth reference. Both lines are considered floating and the earth pin isn't actually connected to anything.
Now if a single item develops an internal short, the overload protection will operate and the supply shuts off. If you have multiple devices, and one develops a fault to the 'active' side and the other to the 'neutral' side, the supply will keep chugging along quite happily, but if you touch both faulty appliances at the same time, it's good night to you. Remember RCD's are ineffective on isolated supplies.
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That is a lot of Swiss cheese to line up, but in my line of work, I see things line up all the time, so I’d never say it can’t happen, but gee you’d need to be unlucky.
now, I understand less than I should, and ask silly questions more than I would like.........
but
I cannot help myself.....
let me get this right (from my understanding of whats been written)
if I plug a generator into my Van - the RCD wont work if there is a fault somewhere- but an RVD would............
my lack of knowledge of 240V is showing I know......... but that makes as much sense as saying ALL Politicians are honest...........
but
I cannot help myself.....
let me get this right (from my understanding of whats been written)
if I plug a generator into my Van - the RCD wont work if there is a fault somewhere- but an RVD would............
my lack of knowledge of 240V is showing I know......... but that makes as much sense as saying ALL Politicians are honest...........
@Bellbirdweb to use a phrase such as "Swiss Cheese" you obviously work in an industry where like me safety is a huge part of your job and is constantly being re-enforced. After 28 years in the oil and gas industry I know only to well what happens when the holes in the Swiss Cheese line up.
I've been involved with several major incidents and these have occurred due to a break down in our very tight and stringent safety systems. Be that from behavioural, mechanical or systems failures the fact is they did happen and believe me being LUCKY and or UNLUCKY had nothing to do with it.
I see replacing the standard RCD with an RVD-EMR as taking an already safe system and improving on it as we do in the oil and gas industry all the time.
At the end of the day do you need to replace a $20 RCD with a $200 RVD-EMR no you don't but if you are going to use a stand alone power system such as a generator or inverter then to not make the change when you are aware of the risk in my opinion is not very clever.
From what I have learnt over the years safety has no price and if there is a way to make a system better and you are aware of how to do it than I believe that you should, I look forward to your test results.
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That is correct @bigcol inverters present the same problem, it is different if you use an inverter to power only one item at a time from what I understand but if you are going to run your whole van on one then there is an issue.
Do yourself a favour and Google "caravan RVD", this will bring up many pages on this subject from the caravaners forum. There is a lot of BS to deal with in amongst these pages those boys really like to hammer each other but there is some excellent reading on this subject as well.
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My simple anologue grey cells have the understanding that a RCD requires a proper Earth to enable the unit to trip when something shorts , thusly a gennie won't, the RVD-EMR is coupled to an RCD and effectively monitors the unit, will detect a short and cause the RCD to trip whether an Earth is grounded or not, therefore should cover a gennie.................but is the short is in the gennie lead your toast I think...
Anyway since I use a gennie a few times I think I will invest in one,I quite like the one incorporated in a lead but a lot of money..
Anyway since I use a gennie a few times I think I will invest in one,I quite like the one incorporated in a lead but a lot of money..
@Drover the RVD-EMR is a RVD and RCD in one, it will protect you when plugged into mains and when using stand alone power, now what I haven't mentioned and we need to take into account is the MEN system (Multiple Earth Neutral). As I have said I am not an electrican and the following may be wrong so please don't take it as gospel until a sparky can verify it.
Your house is wired in this fashion and it is this that allows an RCD to work, an RCD needs to see a residual current fault/excursion/surge/spike between active and neutral to trip. This fault in a house will go to earth as there's a path for it but from what I understand caravans do not have the same path to earth (unless plugged into a powered site) that your house does thus creating the issue we are talking about when using stand alone power.
From what I understand if a fault should occur in a van there is the potential that the current will keep flowing until it finds an alternative path and this could be through you or a loved one. Again from what I understand the chance of this happening is unlikely but it does exist and an RVD-EMR fixes this.
MEN explained, https://www.worksafe.qld.gov.au/__d...233/es-multiple-earth-neutral-connections.pdf
Your house is wired in this fashion and it is this that allows an RCD to work, an RCD needs to see a residual current fault/excursion/surge/spike between active and neutral to trip. This fault in a house will go to earth as there's a path for it but from what I understand caravans do not have the same path to earth (unless plugged into a powered site) that your house does thus creating the issue we are talking about when using stand alone power.
From what I understand if a fault should occur in a van there is the potential that the current will keep flowing until it finds an alternative path and this could be through you or a loved one. Again from what I understand the chance of this happening is unlikely but it does exist and an RVD-EMR fixes this.
MEN explained, https://www.worksafe.qld.gov.au/__d...233/es-multiple-earth-neutral-connections.pdf
Yep, so however it all works the general consensus is FIT ONE ..........
I can assure you if the earth on your mains lead fails the only sign I found was a tingle on the pinkies when I touched the chassis, prompting a quick shutdown and testing everything until I discovered the fault, now I come to realise if I hadn't got a tingle a fault in some electrical device could have been nasty as the RCD more than likely wouldn't have worked.......
I can assure you if the earth on your mains lead fails the only sign I found was a tingle on the pinkies when I touched the chassis, prompting a quick shutdown and testing everything until I discovered the fault, now I come to realise if I hadn't got a tingle a fault in some electrical device could have been nasty as the RCD more than likely wouldn't have worked.......
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If that is the case why do inverters come with a earth to chassis point on them?? With included earth wire.
I recently had the insulation melt off a wire from my battery to my 2000w inverter. It was a short wire run about 20 cm from the battery positive to a 150amp breaker located before the inverter. The wire from the breaker to the inverter was unaffected.
I realise this is a very serious situation and I want to get to the bottom of it. Someone has suggested to me that it is because my inverter is not directly earthed to my van chassis.
What inverter is it? Are you talking about the earth point on the frame of your inverter? Earth it back to the neg busbar in the same sized cable as your pos and negative inverter to battery cables.
Its a novapal 2000w pure sine inverter. I'm talking about the only earth point on the unit shown in the photo to the right of the usb socket. It would not really be feasible to use the same size wire as that of my positive and negative inverter battery cables as they are 16mm2. The earth point on my inverter has a stud size of only 3 mm2.
Attachments
While this topic has been woken again, I confirmed with Springers Solar which RCBO they use when installing either a Victron or Enerdrive Inverter/Charger. They use the following beside the existing van RCD
www.hagerelectro.com.au
ADA916T | Hager Australia
Looking for RCBO 1P+N 6kA C-16A 30mA A Class ADA916T? Find all the information for RCBO 6kA, 2 Module, 1P+N, Type A, 'C' Curve on the official Hager website!
www.hagerelectro.com.au