Chassis Stamped Ball weight V's Actual, Help needed..

warren cook

Well-Known Member
Sep 18, 2016
280
619
93
46
Western Sydney
Hey Guys,

Something that's been nagging me for a while so thought I would throw it out there for some advice.

I have a 2016 20.64-1 OB, every where I look on line and brochure's the tow ball weight is approx. 230kg, @ChrisFatboySydney has the identical van and has 273 on the ball.

We checked mine on his scales and it came in with 280kg loaded.

My plate from Jayco says Empty Ball Mass is only 183kg. I questioned this when it was in for warranty work and first service and they checked it on their scales and it came in with 230kg (I did empty the van as close to tare as I could). They said that you generally get a 10% variance and it was acceptable and not to worry about the plate reading. Outside of 10% if my calculation is correct????

I have pondered away trying to think of the ways in which it might bite me on the proverbial, accident claims or payload etc etc and would like the more experienced guys to give me their opinions please and whether I should be going back to Jayco and demanding something be done. A little voice is telling me it is my responsibility and duty of care to fix.

By the way I have 3.5tonne tow capacity and 350kg download on tow bar. I will be towing with either Grand Cherokee or SR5 Hilux so tow vehicle should be fine on most accounts.

All opinions welcome.
 

warren cook

Well-Known Member
Sep 18, 2016
280
619
93
46
Western Sydney
Just reading back through the post and am now guessing that their 230kg tested at the service department is a little convenient as it matches the brochure, I reckon I should be getting down to the weighbridge. Still though it is not 183kg.......
 
  • Like
Reactions: Delano

Dobbie

Well-Known Member
Jun 18, 2014
3,061
5,872
113
My understanding is that the minimum and maximum tow ball weights are the range the van should fall within.

The actual ...I think it's the stamped or the one noted on the registration papers...is the measured tow ball weight from the factory as it supposedly emerged....though I think it's probably a more generic weight as I'm not sure they weigh every van individually. I could be wrong...and surprised.

The measurement you're getting, and the one that the service guys noted, is with the addition of the gas, water toolbox, etc etc etc etc.....I think.

eg my 16.49.3 was rated as
Tow ball empty.....173
Tow ball max ........208

When measured with van fully loaded and set up for travel.....tow ball weight was actually 198.

That was with full gas, full water, a lightweight Weber box on the front, spare at rear and so on.

That was one of the reasons we refrained from putting a heavy tool box on the a frame...it would have pushed the tow ball weight too close to the max of 208.

(The vehicle tow bar is rated at 350 but the critical factor is the max allowable with that specific van, given all the specs for suspension, tyres, chassis etc)

At least, that my understanding but I could be wrong.

I do know the tow ball weights are as important as the other weights and they directly affect your vehicle payload.
 

warren cook

Well-Known Member
Sep 18, 2016
280
619
93
46
Western Sydney
Thinking about it now, my concern now is my payload and ATM.

My GTM is stamped at 2912kg, then add my stamped 183kg ball weight it equals 3096, =ATM

My ATM is stamped as 3096kg Correct Yes?

My tare is 2529 so my calculation means I have only 383kg left of payload (not the 475kg in the brochure), and that's based on the lower weight reading on the ball.

The reality is it is going to be 280kg ball weight when loaded which technically means 3096 ATM less 280 Ball leaves a GTM of 2816.

2816GTM minus 2529 tare is only a payload left of 287 kg for bits and bobs.

Now this is where it gets really messy for me..........:help:

At what point do we take in to account that when hitched some weight is transferred over to the tug which in essence reduces the weight of the van and starts to count towards Gross combined Mass, which then should increase my payload again, GGGGRRRRRRR

Has anyone got any aspirin and a scotch.

I knew I should have left it alone......
 

Johnanbev

Well-Known Member
Jul 7, 2013
312
415
63
83
Sunbury VIC.
Hi Warren
The only pin/tow ball mass that is of any interest is the loaded pin/tow ball mass.
Then it must be less than the tow bar rating and the tow vehicle rating.
Pin/tow ball mass at tare is entirely useless information and of no interest in operations.
As @Dobbie says pin/tow ball mass is part of the tow vehicle GVM
john
 
  • Like
Reactions: bigcol

Dobbie

Well-Known Member
Jun 18, 2014
3,061
5,872
113
Hey @warren cook ....some time ago I posted a spreadsheet for all weights, including the effect of tow ball weight on payload etc.

As I'm totally unable to post the link, do a search for "a suggestion for checking important weights".

It's the method I've used for ages and used once again when we were sorting out our new van....and it works for me.
 

warren cook

Well-Known Member
Sep 18, 2016
280
619
93
46
Western Sydney
Hey @warren cook ....some time ago I posted a spreadsheet for all weights, including the effect of tow ball weight on payload etc.

As I'm totally unable to post the link, do a search for "a suggestion for checking important weights".

It's the method I've used for ages and used once again when we were sorting out our new van....and it works for me.

@Dobbie I was quite happily living in ignorance until last night when I went through some old STICKY Threads, (not mentioning any names here)......... that's what got me all confused again as I thought I had a grip on it all. I am going straight over to yours soon.

@Johnanbev, are you basically saying work out my payload backwards from the 280kg ball weight loaded to be correct?.

Actually this is what I should have done in the first place, who likes puzzles?

If my Tare is 2529,
And my ATM is 3095,
my ball weight is 280,

What is my payload allowance?
 

Johnanbev

Well-Known Member
Jul 7, 2013
312
415
63
83
Sunbury VIC.
Don't confuse yourself
The tare and pin mass ex factory should be on a sticker stuck to the front of your operation manual.

Tare plus 475kg = ATM

ATM minus pin mass = GTM [ max mass on wheels]

Load the trailer and provided it is less than ATM and the pin is between 183kg and 350kg it is good to go.
Tow vehicle tare plus occupants, fuel and extras plus pin mass must be less than GVM
The combined unit must be less than GCM
 

warren cook

Well-Known Member
Sep 18, 2016
280
619
93
46
Western Sydney
your payload is ATM minus Tare, which seems to be 566kg, from your figures above.
They use ATM minus pin mass at Tare to calculate the GTM

Quick question @Johnanbev

I think I am getting closer, thanks for the patience. Do I deduct actual tow ball download of 280kg from the 566kg leaving me the rest for everything else, water/food/gas etc etc?

Also just a thought, does the weight of the added awning reduce the factory payload as it was fitted at the dealer, that was the only dealer fitted option I had done?
 

Dobbie

Well-Known Member
Jun 18, 2014
3,061
5,872
113
Awning is part of van assessed weights...

Tow ball weight is deducted from the vehicle's payload not the van.

The gas etc is part of the van payload which is ATM less tare.
 

warren cook

Well-Known Member
Sep 18, 2016
280
619
93
46
Western Sydney
Awning is part of van assessed weights...

Tow ball weight is deducted from the vehicle's payload not the van.

The gas etc is part of the van payload which is ATM less tare.

Lightbulb moment, just read that the GTM is measured at the wheels, now it all makes sense as it is that plus the towball download that equals the ATM, which is obvious to those in the know hey....

I tow with the tanks empty so I should be well under and legal.

So the consensus is that I do not need to worry about the 183kg on the compliance and get on with life as it means nothing and there can be no implications moving forward, I really just need to know my actual weights are within the guidelines and I am covered.

The van at tare weighs what it weighs and maybe just balanced more towards the rear which could simply mean a lower ball weight. I can live with that.

Cheers gents.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bluey and bigcol

Johnanbev

Well-Known Member
Jul 7, 2013
312
415
63
83
Sunbury VIC.
Quick question @Johnanbev

I think I am getting closer, thanks for the patience. Do I deduct actual tow ball download of 280kg from the 566kg leaving me the rest for everything else, water/food/gas etc etc?

Also just a thought, does the weight of the added awning reduce the factory payload as it was fitted at the dealer, that was the only dealer fitted option I had done?


The actual tow ball mass is part of the trailer ATM, so it is part of the payload, because payload is ATM minus Tare.
Anything fitted after the trailer leaves the factory is part of the payload.
The trailer leaving the factory is weighed as is. i.e. no water or grey water, no hot water in heater, no toilet water,
gas bottles fitted but empty, therefore if the awning was fitted after the Tare weighing it must form part of the payload.
Your payload of 566kg is unusual, tandem axles with shower are usually 475kg payload unless you ask for the upgraded
payload of 600kg at manufacture. I had this upgrade done as I had a grey water tank installed and figured that with all the tanks
filled the weight would be in the order of 308kg which reduces the available payload for other stuff. I also had an extra battery and other things
done at manufacture so it would all be included in the Tare weight ex factory and not reduce my payload.
Apologies for being long winded.
John
 
  • Like
Reactions: Delano and bigcol

Johnanbev

Well-Known Member
Jul 7, 2013
312
415
63
83
Sunbury VIC.
Lightbulb moment, just read that the GTM is measured at the wheels, now it all makes sense as it is that plus the towball download that equals the ATM, which is obvious to those in the know hey....

I tow with the tanks empty so I should be well under and legal.

So the consensus is that I do not need to worry about the 183kg on the compliance and get on with life as it means nothing and there can be no implications moving forward, I really just need to know my actual weights are within the guidelines and I am covered.

The van at tare weighs what it weighs and maybe just balanced more towards the rear which could simply mean a lower ball weight. I can live with that.

Cheers gents.
Hey Warren, you've got it!!
Just remember that mass moved aft of the rear axle reduces stability,
Happy vanning
John
 

mikerezny

Well-Known Member
Sep 11, 2016
1,630
2,728
113
Mount Waverley, VIC
Hi,
I have two formulas that work for me:

ATM = Tare + Maximum Payload

and completely separate is:
ATM = GTM + towball weight
So the total maximum weight of the van (ATM) comprises the weight on the wheels (GTM) + the weight on the towball.

Here is a diagram that I found useful:

ATMdiagram.jpeg


cheers
Mike
 

warren cook

Well-Known Member
Sep 18, 2016
280
619
93
46
Western Sydney
Hi,
I have two formulas that work for me:

ATM = Tare + Maximum Payload

and completely separate is:
ATM = GTM + towball weight
So the total maximum weight of the van (ATM) comprises the weight on the wheels (GTM) + the weight on the towball.

Here is a diagram that I found useful:

View attachment 49560

cheers
Mike
Thanks Mike,

I think it was your thread that from a few years ago that got me thinking about it as I recognise the diagram.

What confused me was my ball weight appears to be really low at Tare weight v's advertised and could not figure out why it was so different.

I never asked for a payload increase when ordering and seem to have one, however my van arrived a month early so maybe I received a cancelled order that had it done.

I think I am going to bury my head back in the sand and accept allmis good.

Thought I would throw it out there in case someone reckons I need to fix it up on the compliance plate.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bigcol

warren cook

Well-Known Member
Sep 18, 2016
280
619
93
46
Western Sydney
The actual tow ball mass is part of the trailer ATM, so it is part of the payload, because payload is ATM minus Tare.
Anything fitted after the trailer leaves the factory is part of the payload.
The trailer leaving the factory is weighed as is. i.e. no water or grey water, no hot water in heater, no toilet water,
gas bottles fitted but empty, therefore if the awning was fitted after the Tare weighing it must form part of the payload.
Your payload of 566kg is unusual, tandem axles with shower are usually 475kg payload unless you ask for the upgraded
payload of 600kg at manufacture. I had this upgrade done as I had a grey water tank installed and figured that with all the tanks
filled the weight would be in the order of 308kg which reduces the available payload for other stuff. I also had an extra battery and other things
done at manufacture so it would all be included in the Tare weight ex factory and not reduce my payload.
Apologies for being long winded.
John

John,

It's never long winded when I'm learning things matey, I appreciate the feedback.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bigcol

mikerezny

Well-Known Member
Sep 11, 2016
1,630
2,728
113
Mount Waverley, VIC
Thanks Mike,

I think it was your thread that from a few years ago that got me thinking about it as I recognise the diagram.

What confused me was my ball weight appears to be really low at Tare weight v's advertised and could not figure out why it was so different.

I never asked for a payload increase when ordering and seem to have one, however my van arrived a month early so maybe I received a cancelled order that had it done.

I think I am going to bury my head back in the sand and accept allmis good.

Thought I would throw it out there in case someone reckons I need to fix it up on the compliance plate.
Hi @warren cook,
All the terms are confusing and it doesn't help when the compliance plate is not accurate.

I think it has been mentioned before but here is my take on what is important, for ones own safety, meeting legal requirements, and ensuring your insurance company will cover you in an accident. I am writing this for myself as well, since I still get confused every time I visit this topic. Hopefully, someone will correct me where I have got it wrong. Apologies if you already know all this.

The TOTAL weight of your van when loaded cannot exceed the ATM on the compliance plate.
The weight of the van is distributed between the wheels and the weight on the towball.
The weight on the axles cannot exceed the axle group loading. This covers the axle, wheels, bearings, and brake drums and brakes. I think you also have to sdparetly ensure the load rating of the tyres is sufficient.

Then you look at the combined vehicle plus van. The GVM (Gross Vehicle Mass) is the maximum weight on the tyres of the loaded vehicle (including fuel, luggage and passenger etc) It also will include the towball weight. You cannot exceed this.
If you get the empty vehicle weight, add passengers, fuel, luggage, and the actual towball weight, you can get a good idea of the GVM without having to mess around weighing the car.

Then, for a vehicle there is also the GCM which is the whole shebang fully loaded car (GVM) and van (GTM). You cannot exceed this either.

For stability, it seems the towball weight should be about 10% of the total weight of the van (This could be less than the ATM, since the van isn't necessarily loaded to maximum capacity). But towbars have a maximum towball weight which should not be exceeded and should be written on the compliance plate for the towbar. In my Falcon, I have a medium duty 1600kg towbar with a maximum towball weight of 160kg. The loaded weight of my van is about 1164kg, and my towball weight is 127kg. So I am under the tow bar max and about 11% of my van weight is on the towball. My ATM is 1264 (I estimate that we carry about 200kg of stuff and my personal allowance is 300kg, Tare is 964kg)

As well, the towball weight is borne by the wheels of the car. But because of the placing of the towbar, the actually adds more weight to
the rear wheels and takes weight of the front wheels. In my Falcon, the factor is 1.4. So 127kg of towball weight adds 178kg loading to the rear wheels.

The rear wheels of the car also have a maximum loading which cannot be exceeded.

I did some calculations on the rear axle weight of the Falcon, and came to the conclusion that I could carry what I now carry in the boot and two passengers without overlaoding. Fortunately, the weight of passengers in the front and rear don't all go on the rear axle. My rough rule of thumb is that I can have two passengers or another 100kg in the boot without worrying about axle loading.

Sorry for the long posting. When I first contemplated buying a Penguin, I had absolutely no idea about any of this. I initially assumed it was a very light camper trailer and I didn't have to worry about weight. How wrong I was! It took me ages to get my head around it, even for such a relatively small setup. Perhaps I still haven't yet got it right.

cheers
Mike
 
  • Like
Reactions: KECL and bigcol

Johnanbev

Well-Known Member
Jul 7, 2013
312
415
63
83
Sunbury VIC.
Hi @warren cook,
All the terms are confusing and it doesn't help when the compliance plate is not accurate.

I think it has been mentioned before but here is my take on what is important, for ones own safety, meeting legal requirements, and ensuring your insurance company will cover you in an accident. I am writing this for myself as well, since I still get confused every time I visit this topic. Hopefully, someone will correct me where I have got it wrong. Apologies if you already know all this.

The TOTAL weight of your van when loaded cannot exceed the ATM on the compliance plate.
The weight of the van is distributed between the wheels and the weight on the towball.
The weight on the axles cannot exceed the axle group loading. This covers the axle, wheels, bearings, and brake drums and brakes. I think you also have to sdparetly ensure the load rating of the tyres is sufficient.

Then you look at the combined vehicle plus van. The GVM (Gross Vehicle Mass) is the maximum weight on the tyres of the loaded vehicle (including fuel, luggage and passenger etc) It also will include the towball weight. You cannot exceed this.
If you get the empty vehicle weight, add passengers, fuel, luggage, and the actual towball weight, you can get a good idea of the GVM without having to mess around weighing the car.

Then, for a vehicle there is also the GCM which is the whole shebang fully loaded car (GVM) and van (GTM). You cannot exceed this either.

For stability, it seems the towball weight should be about 10% of the total weight of the van (This could be less than the ATM, since the van isn't necessarily loaded to maximum capacity). But towbars have a maximum towball weight which should not be exceeded and should be written on the compliance plate for the towbar. In my Falcon, I have a medium duty 1600kg towbar with a maximum towball weight of 160kg. The loaded weight of my van is about 1164kg, and my towball weight is 127kg. So I am under the tow bar max and about 11% of my van weight is on the towball. My ATM is 1264 (I estimate that we carry about 200kg of stuff and my personal allowance is 300kg, Tare is 964kg)

As well, the towball weight is borne by the wheels of the car. But because of the placing of the towbar, the actually adds more weight to
the rear wheels and takes weight of the front wheels. In my Falcon, the factor is 1.4. So 127kg of towball weight adds 178kg loading to the rear wheels.

The rear wheels of the car also have a maximum loading which cannot be exceeded.

I did some calculations on the rear axle weight of the Falcon, and came to the conclusion that I could carry what I now carry in the boot and two passengers without overlaoding. Fortunately, the weight of passengers in the front and rear don't all go on the rear axle. My rough rule of thumb is that I can have two passengers or another 100kg in the boot without worrying about axle loading.

Sorry for the long posting. When I first contemplated buying a Penguin, I had absolutely no idea about any of this. I initially assumed it was a very light camper trailer and I didn't have to worry about weight. How wrong I was! It took me ages to get my head around it, even for such a relatively small setup. Perhaps I still haven't yet got it right.

cheers
Mike
Hi Mike
You also totally have it !!
Now if you want we can move onto balancing an airplane and calculating C of G. [bit more complicated]
John
 

warren cook

Well-Known Member
Sep 18, 2016
280
619
93
46
Western Sydney
Hi @warren cook,
All the terms are confusing and it doesn't help when the compliance plate is not accurate.

I think it has been mentioned before but here is my take on what is important, for ones own safety, meeting legal requirements, and ensuring your insurance company will cover you in an accident. I am writing this for myself as well, since I still get confused every time I visit this topic. Hopefully, someone will correct me where I have got it wrong. Apologies if you already know all this.

The TOTAL weight of your van when loaded cannot exceed the ATM on the compliance plate.
The weight of the van is distributed between the wheels and the weight on the towball.
The weight on the axles cannot exceed the axle group loading. This covers the axle, wheels, bearings, and brake drums and brakes. I think you also have to sdparetly ensure the load rating of the tyres is sufficient.

Then you look at the combined vehicle plus van. The GVM (Gross Vehicle Mass) is the maximum weight on the tyres of the loaded vehicle (including fuel, luggage and passenger etc) It also will include the towball weight. You cannot exceed this.
If you get the empty vehicle weight, add passengers, fuel, luggage, and the actual towball weight, you can get a good idea of the GVM without having to mess around weighing the car.

Then, for a vehicle there is also the GCM which is the whole shebang fully loaded car (GVM) and van (GTM). You cannot exceed this either.

For stability, it seems the towball weight should be about 10% of the total weight of the van (This could be less than the ATM, since the van isn't necessarily loaded to maximum capacity). But towbars have a maximum towball weight which should not be exceeded and should be written on the compliance plate for the towbar. In my Falcon, I have a medium duty 1600kg towbar with a maximum towball weight of 160kg. The loaded weight of my van is about 1164kg, and my towball weight is 127kg. So I am under the tow bar max and about 11% of my van weight is on the towball. My ATM is 1264 (I estimate that we carry about 200kg of stuff and my personal allowance is 300kg, Tare is 964kg)

As well, the towball weight is borne by the wheels of the car. But because of the placing of the towbar, the actually adds more weight to
the rear wheels and takes weight of the front wheels. In my Falcon, the factor is 1.4. So 127kg of towball weight adds 178kg loading to the rear wheels.

The rear wheels of the car also have a maximum loading which cannot be exceeded.

I did some calculations on the rear axle weight of the Falcon, and came to the conclusion that I could carry what I now carry in the boot and two passengers without overlaoding. Fortunately, the weight of passengers in the front and rear don't all go on the rear axle. My rough rule of thumb is that I can have two passengers or another 100kg in the boot without worrying about axle loading.

Sorry for the long posting. When I first contemplated buying a Penguin, I had absolutely no idea about any of this. I initially assumed it was a very light camper trailer and I didn't have to worry about weight. How wrong I was! It took me ages to get my head around it, even for such a relatively small setup. Perhaps I still haven't yet got it right.

cheers
Mike
Cheers Mike,

An informative read matey and confirmed a lot for me.

In short my car can handle all of the above with room and I have quite a bit of room with weight, just got to see how many more cartons I can add in now.

Also I've learned not to flick through some old posts when I've got time to kill lol.

Now I'm off to read up on balancing a plane so I can take part in @Johnanbev next thread.....