New Member, New Van On Order

[Joves]

Hi all,

My wife Annika and I have been stalking this forum for the past couple of weeks and, after reading about all the great times you seem to all be having with your Expanda’s and spending a lot of time going back and forth over additional options with the dealer (them actually looking to cull our list, but us continually adding to it) have just bitten the bullet and put down a deposit on a new 20.64-1-OB.19EX.

We are a family of five, with three boys (11, 5 and 3). We have been on many holidays together, but my wife and I have been wanting to get the boys out amongst nature and spend some quality time together. We feel they are at the perfect age for us to invest in something that will allow us to do so with a nice amount of comfort, so decided to take the plunge. The display models of the van we have ordered seems to fit the bill nicely and is due for delivery mid-August. I have to admit, we may have gone slightly overboard with the options, but feel it is money well spent if it allows us all to get out under the trees and stars together more often.

We look forward to hopefully being meaningful contributors to the forum once we have a little bit of experience under our belt.

Cheers,

Aaron.

Here is a list of what we have added to the thing.

 

[DRW]

Welcome @Joves, sounds like you have a great plan, the list is fairly straight forward I recon, what do you plan on towing this new panda with?

 

[Joves]

Thanks for the welcome, DRW.

We have also purchased a new Land Rover Discovery TD6, which should handle the task. Car arrives mid June, van arrives mid August. Should be set for a nice September school holiday shakedown!

 

[Crusty181]

Welcome @Joves, and more importantly welcome to 20ft Expanda ownership ... the only way to fly.

Very nice list of options, with the most important things covered off. My only ? would be the solar could be a little light on for a 12v fridge along with the usual daily draw on the batteries.

Theres 3 of us and we have a single 150w roof panel without a 12v fridge, and we barely manage with perfect solar conditions. Your extra panel wouldnt provide enough for the fridge, and throw in some less than perfect conditions and youll be taking too much out of the batteries.

Ours is a single ended 20ft'er with much of your option list. A 2014 model 50k km almost 500 nights in it and we still love it. Youll be very happy with you choices

 

[Joves]

Thanks for the welcome Crusty and for confirming that you still love your van after so much time with it!!

Thanks also for pointing that out about the solar situation. I’m not so sure what other options we have other than 2x160w panels? Am a little naive to it all, I’m afraid. We foresee that we will be wanting to do an even mix of park and freecamping, hence optioning the extra solar and also purchasing the generator (for freecamping).

Do you have any suggestions regarding solar and batteries to rectify the issue? I reckon we are likely to be running out of roof and battery space as it is.

Thanks again for your message, we really appreciate it!

 

[sierramason]

Hi all,

My wife Annika and I have been stalking this forum for the past couple of weeks and, after reading about all the great times you seem to all be having with your Expanda’s and spending a lot of time going back and forth over additional options with the dealer (them actually looking to cull our list, but us continually adding to it) have just bitten the bullet and put down a deposit on a new 20.64-1-OB.19EX.

We are a family of five, with three boys (11, 5 and 3). We have been on many holidays together, but my wife and I have been wanting to get the boys out amongst nature and spend some quality time together. We feel they are at the perfect age for us to invest in something that will allow us to do so with a nice amount of comfort, so decided to take the plunge. The display models of the van we have ordered seems to fit the bill nicely and is due for delivery mid-August. I have to admit, we may have gone slightly overboard with the options, but feel it is money well spent if it allows us all to get out under the trees and stars together more often.

We look forward to hopefully being meaningful contributors to the forum once we have a little bit of experience under our belt.

Cheers,

Aaron.

Here is a list of what we have added to the thing.View attachment 63348

Wow what a list of extras?

 

[Joves]

Thanks Sierra, we thought it was possibly going overboard, but looks like we may need more solar and battery if we can fit it in!

 

[Crusty181]

Thanks for the welcome Crusty and for confirming that you still love your van after so much time with it!!

Thanks also for pointing that out about the solar situation. I’m not so sure what other options we have other than 2x160w panels? Am a little naive to it all, I’m afraid. We foresee that we will be wanting to do an even mix of park and freecamping, hence optioning the extra solar and also purchasing the generator (for freecamping).

Do you have any suggestions regarding solar and batteries to rectify the issue? I reckon we are likely to be running out of roof and battery space as it is.

Thanks again for your message, we really appreciate it!

2 x 160w panels will produce in perfect conditions around 7amps each panel, on an MPPT reg you would get around 8.5amps each panel. Solar is generally only producing for around 4 hours per day, give or take, through the middle part of the day. You panels will produce around 4 hours x 7 amps each panel, so around 56amps per day. Your fridge will consume around 4 amps per hour when its cycling, so over 24 hours at 50% it will consume 48amps. These figures are environmently adjustable ie less sun less solar, theres more sun up north and in summer because its higher in the sky, cool weather the fridge cycles less etc etc. But on average both of your panels will need pretty consistent sun just to supply the fridge, and leave not much for other requirements. To put that into perspective we had 1 x 150w panel on the roof and our fridge is gas. In a run of terrific weather we didnt quiet generate enough for our consumption, on the odd occasion we had crap weather the batteries took a huge thumping.

You could ask for bigger panels now, or see how you go and do it later. You could add more panels later, swap the 160w panels for larger panels or supplement with portable panels after you see how you go.

One other important issue is deep cycle batteries do not like to be drawn down, the less you take out of the them the longer they will serve you. If you continually take most of the charge out of them they will die relatively quickly, keep them up around 80 or 90% on a smart charger and they will last you many many years. The kind of general effective use v life span advice you often hear is dont drawn down past 50%. This isnt a magic number and is in effect reducing the batteries lifespan but its giving you the best compromise. In practical terms you have 100amps of usable power in 2 x 100amp batteries. How a deep cycle battery isnt like a bucket of water, in that it has 100amps just sitting there. Plug in large consumption devices and you want get anywhere near the 100amps, very low draw devices and youll get more. Im very careful with my batteries and one of them is 10 years old

The solar regulator Jayco supply is a cheaper PWM style, and an MPPT reg will in most circumstances get a little more out of the panels. The MPPT regs are more expensive but are easy to swap out; 2 x panel wires and 2 x battery wires

Shading is also a killer for a solar panel, just a hand print size shadow on only one of the cells can virtually knock the entire panel out. That means you will mostly be camping in full sun all the time, so parking the van with the long kerb side wall facing NW will shade your awning side in the arvo. When thats not possible we have 2 x blanket panels with long cables we can throw out on the ground.

There are some very clever people on this forum that have a depth of knowledge on this solar/battery stuff that is matched by their generosity. So ask away

 

[Joves]

That is great information, thanks Crusty.

My understating is that the fridge is a 3-way, so can be run on gas also. I wonder if it might be a clever, or at least more viable, option to run it on gas when freecamping and leave the 12v power for everything else? I have no idea how gas-hungry these fridges are. I wonder if 2x 9kg gas bottles would happily service the fridge, cooking, instantaneous HWS for a lengthy enough stint that sees us deplete our 246 litre combined water storage (used sensibly and mindfully sparingly of course).

It will be interesting to see how long we could self-sufficiently survive in the van as a family before having to re-fill the services.

Cheers again,
Aaron

 

[Joves]

Uh-oh. I think I now see your concern with the fridge, Crusty. It appears that it may not be 3-way after all, in which case my above suggested remedy would not even be an option. If this is the case, then you are an absolute life-saver my friend, as I still have time to change it back to the standard Thetford 171 litre 3-way fridge/freezer.

I think this would be the wisest thing to do. I’d rather a slightly smaller fridge capacity which allows us to go off-grid for longer. Is this what you would recommend and, if we were to do this, do you think that would be a big remedy to our solar concerns?

 

[chartrock]

Hopefully the count required is only 10.

Actually, the required count is five so I have deleted some of your extra posts. You are now a full member of our forum so welcome aboard and we look forward to some interesting posts from you.

 

[Joves]

Thanks Chartrock, that’s greatly appreciated.

Glad to be an official (clueless for the time being) member!

 

[Joves]

Just a quick update. We have ditched the larger fridge for the Thetford 3-way. Hopefully this sees us with plenty of battery power whilst free camping with the fridge running on gas.

Thanks so much again for all of your help, particularly Crusty, in pointing this out for us!

 

[Drover]

Welcome to the mob @Joves it will be great to see pics of it when it arrives.......................... Not much to add other than the usual things at delivery, make the pick up time in the morning so they can spend a few hours going over the rig and showing you both how things work, run and check everything even the wahsingmachine, in fact especially the washing machine, new ones have a problem of flooding the van because some idiot never hooked it up properly, run the fridge on all power sources, don't just take the salesmens word for it, they are sellers and don't always know very much about camping anyway, water pump runs on both tanks, AC runs, bed and cupboards work, HWS and that the TV aerial actually pic up TV, a full check of everything that opens, shuts and powers up will save that first trip being a big pain................... don't forget the wheel nuts are tight before you leave, wheels have fallen off..............
I may sound cynical and not meaning to put a downer on things but the preperation of new vans leaves a lot to be desired and unless its in writing the dealer will deny anything verbal most times, after you drive out f the yard the less number of times back is for the better so a good check...... and demand a certified weigh bridge ticket before you accept the rig, even if you have to pay for them it could save hassle later on....

A 3 way fridge runs on 240 when plugged into a power station, gas when off grid and 12v when driving down the road, 12v will only try to keep the fridge at temp and shouldn't be used unless the tug engine is running a 3 way fridge will flatten a battery in about 1.5hrs....... if you check the tag on the fridge it will show how much gas is burnt per hr, off grid a 9kg bottle will allow around 11 days continuous for a big fridge (185lt), not sure about the instant HWS but like the standard versions only turn on when you need it....

Make sure the Winegard TV aerial is a snowflake design the others wont pick up signals in some areas.

 

[Crusty181]

Just a quick update. We have ditched the larger fridge for the Thetford 3-way. Hopefully this sees us with plenty of battery power whilst free camping with the fridge running on gas.

Thanks so much again for all of your help, particularly Crusty, in pointing this out for us!

Hey @Joves, I was only questioning the solar in regards to a large 12v fridge. I should add in some other wider picture considerations so your better informed. I didn't intend in that post to swing you away from 12v .... thats kind off in this post.

Removing fuel sources from the equation and looking purely at function, 12v fridges are without question superior to 3 way fridges. They operate just like the fridge at home, cool quickly and recover quickly. The 3 way takes time to cool and recover, and will suffer from continually opening the door particularly in extreme heat. The debate comes down to fuelling each of them in the real world, and which fridge will keep going in the widest range of environments with the least amount hurdles. Each has its pros and cons. The 12v fridges pros are better than and 3 way, but the 12v cons are worse than the 3way's. Its kinda like the 12v fridge is either all or nothing, 100% or rubbish. The 3 way is kinda just humming along at 70% as good as a 12v all the time.

The absence of sun will stop the 12v in its tracks and you cant manufacture sunshine. Generators are only viable for short term use, but you could arguable put enough power back into a batteries from a generator in a few hours each day. With access to mains power the 12v fridge would be awesome. You will need to monitor the condition of the batteries because if the battery fails the fridge fails with it. The 3 way only suffers from slow recovery, particularly on hot days, so if you don't open the door it will be fine. Not opening the 3 ways door is of course impractical, so it just means limiting it and managing the fridge when its at it weakest

People who open a fridge door in dream state, and stand there looking at each of the contents in random pitting ones yumminess against another's before adding a 3rd into that eternal struggle are the 3 way fridge's arch enemy. Add some extreme heat and the fridge will simply not cope. We have an Engel in the car which is the adults fridge, and in extreme heat we prop up our 3 way by putting what we'll need throughout the day in the Engel (often we're out and about in the car anyway).

Rain hail or shine the 3 way will just keep on going. Our 150ltr consumes around 18grams per hour so we will get a maximum 19 days from a 9 kg bottle. Its only Achilles heal is the continuous opening of door, especially on hot days.

We've use our van a lot and spent 14mth months travelling Oz in it, most up north, all of it in perpetual summer and many consecutive days above 40deg. We've never had any problems with the 3 way. Understanding and working with its limitations its a very reliable, very set and forget option. If your planning on doing a big grocery shop and its a hot day, loading the fridge up in the middle of a hot with room temp or warm supermarket goodies will instantly raise the cabinet temp and the fridge will struggle to reduce it. Shop later in the day, when the sun has gone and its cooler; that way the fridge can do its thing more efficiently with the door staying shut.

Maybe in a future van I may consider a 12v fridge, but I know Ill need substantial fixed AND portable panels to be confident and comfortable going down that path, and Ill need to commit more to be more considering of it more often. Both work fine, and with both setup correctly and managed correctly the 12v is superior.

 

[Joves]

Hi Drover,

Thanks for the warm welcome.

Thanks also for the great advice. It’s the first van we have ever bought, so all that information is invaluable! Am absolutely going to make a checklist based on your post.

Also great to hear that our setup (with the right fridge) should be well-equipped to sustain us for decent periods of time without having to rely on paid sites. We’re not sure exactly what type of camping we will prefer, so the plan was to get something that doesn’t only restrict us to powered sites.

Oh, and the Winegard antennae is definitely the snowflake version like in your picture.

Thanks again, massively appreciate your reply!

Aaron

 

[Joves]

Crusty,

Mate, I can’t tell you how appreciative I am that you picked up on the original fridge situation from my initial post. I would have been none the wiser and we would have wound up with a no doubt great fridge, but a very limiting one at the same time. You also saved me almost $1500, so that’s always a plus!! Cheque is in the mail...

You’ve further explained the fridge situation perfectly and I’m now confident that the 171L 3-way will be absolutely fine. I’ll definitely invest in a portable Engel type fridge for the grog, as that’s clearly the one that will be opened and closed regularly!! I’m imagining their 12 volt draw on power is reasonable when not plugged into 240 volt mains? I think we’ll likely invest in a 90 watt foldable solar mat, which might come in handy for other things other than powering just the portable fridge. Are there any special wiring requirements to connect this type of thing to the van for extra charging of the batteries when parked in not ideal sunny positions?

Thanks again!

Aaron

 

[Crusty181]

Crusty,

Mate, I can’t tell you how appreciative I am that you picked up on the original fridge situation from my initial post. I would have been none the wiser and we would have wound up with a no doubt great fridge, but a very limiting one at the same time. You also saved me almost $1500, so that’s always a plus!! Cheque is in the mail...

You’ve further explained the fridge situation perfectly and I’m now confident that the 171L 3-way will be absolutely fine. I’ll definitely invest in a portable Engel type fridge for the grog, as that’s clearly the one that will be opened and closed regularly!! I’m imagining their 12 volt draw on power is reasonable when not plugged into 240 volt mains? I think we’ll likely invest in a 90 watt foldable solar mat, which might come in handy for other things other than powering just the portable fridge. Are there any special wiring requirements to connect this type of thing to the van for extra charging of the batteries when parked in not ideal sunny positions?

Thanks again!

Aaron

Your most welcome

The Engel (or small Waeco) will drawer as much the same as the larger 12v van fridge ... odd isn't it. But because you'll likely drive the car most days or another they don't cause as much of an issue as the 12v van fridges. I have a 150w Super Cheap blanket which has very impressive outputs. They are on the expensive side at $500, but they frequently come on special. If you go down that path wait till the specials, I got mine for $300. The Kings blankets seem to be well regarded, but Ive not had or tested one to comment on their output. Many of the cheap solar regulators that come with cheap panels can be a bit dodgy too. Most folks have there own favourite brands, I use Epever and Victron

You need a solar regulator on each panel otherwise the panels raw output will fry your batteries. Ive got a fused Anderson plug under the floor directly under the vans batteries, and can plug one of the blankets into that in need be

 

[rags]

Just on the subject of solar blankets, I picked up today a 125watt folding solar blanket Companion brand from Bunnings for $149
Apparently they originally sold for around $500

Oh and I love our Dometic compressor fridge

 

[DRW]

My 2 cent I’m an auto electrician and I absolutely love solar and 12v fridges, but, I have a 3 way and a Waeco beer fridge. Why??? I like to park in the shade in summer, solar in Victoria is as good as useless in winter and you have to keep an eye on it all the time. As said above 12v compressor fridges are the ducks guts but only when the stars align and extra batteries is extra weight and money.