Electrical Electrical hook up

[Boots in Action]

Hi All, being a "newbe" on this forum, I was hoping for some solid evidence on what can and cannot be done. Some caravan people tell you something and others dispute the same thing. I am the proud owner of a Jayco Penguin 2013 model with all LED lighting. I have noticed that the power cable from my tug vehicle to the van consists of two (2) 6mm wires black and pink plus a single thinner black one that branches off the pink one at the anderson plug. The two heavy wires go direcly to my fridge connections in the side panel behind the fridge and the thin black one seems to disappear behind the SETEC ST111 I0 amp model. I have a 20 amp PV controller connected from my solar panels also. The SETEC charger is only 10 amp max (and only 3 stage too) and with a 130 amp agm, battery, I found it better to use a 15 amp 7 stage battery charger to get the battery voltage up to 14.7 volts whilst the SETEC could only get it up to 14.05v. I have fitted a anderson plug on the side of the van and have run two 8 mm cables direct to the battery. Is this likely to damage the SETEC operation ?? I have been told that I must turn off the battery isolation switch also. Should I connect the battery charger to the anderson plug on the draw bar that connects the tug vehicle with the van? Can someone give some real advice?

 

[Axl]

Hi @Boots in Action I'm not really sure what you are trying to achieve here but ill try to help, I suspect that the black and pink wires you talk about that are going to your fridge is for 12v power supply to the fridge. This wiring loom will allow you to source 12v power from your tow vehicle (if you have the appropriate wiring on the tug) to run the fridge whilst you are traveling. If you stop you need to disconnect this as the fridge will drain your start battery within a couple of hours, DO NOT hook a battery charger to this Anderson plug.

The PV controller you talk about is being feed from panels on the roof I'm guessing? which is all stand alone stuff and will look after your battery with minimal input from you. As for your concern about the Setec only putting out 14v I'm not real sure what you are asking here or trying to achieve, I can tell you now the Setec in my Expanda has looked after my 120AGM battery for many years now with no help form an external battery charger. I have a Projecta 25amp 7stage smart charger and I have never hooked this up to the Expanda as I have never had a need to, I plug my van into mains power at least once a month for a couple of day to allow the Setec to do its job which is to keep the battery fully charged and well maintained, I have attached a battery SOC guide to this post for reference.

I'm assuming the 8mm loom you have run directly to the battery is for you 15amp 7 stage charger firstly I would make sure this run is 8mm2 not 8mm as you have stated or you could be in for trouble. Personally I would be looking at using 10-13mm2 wire for this if I were you, also make sure to fuse this run on the positive side as close to the battery as you can or again there could be trouble. I don't think you would damage the Setec by using an external charger in this way as your solar is doing this already, as for turning off the isolation switch this all depends were in the overall circuit the isolator is, I hope I have made sense.

Oh and :welcome: to the forum, I'm sure you will find the answers you are looking around here all you need to do is keep asking.

 

[NoWorries]

As AXL said NO do not connect the battery charger to the anderson on the drawbar it only goes to the fridge nowhere else.
I also have a 7stage battery charger that I have never connected to the van. I keep the batteries (2x100ah) topped up when not in use with a 40w solar panel (the main ones get covered by the caravan cover) and when we are in the parks I just use the Setec (does the job well). When freecamping I just leave it to the solar on the roof (200w).
The Setec until will keep up to two 12v batteries charged properly so I would not bother with your other charger.

Also even if you attach you other charger it will not affect the Setec ad the will take up to a 14.8v and because you have wired this directly to the battery (which is the correct way for any charging device eg Solar or other charger) it will not be a issue (unless you other charger flips out and pushes down heaps more power (it can happen I have seen it).

ps: 8mm wire will be fine for up to about 70amps(cold) (but I personally would not take it past 50) it is what most Auto elecs use to wire Anderson Plugs
I have seen them melt when cheap hi power air compressors (not fused) are plugged in.

 

[Boots in Action]

Hi Axl, thanks for confirming my thoughts. Sorry i did not give more info to help. The wiring in my tug vehicle has a VSR which cuts out at 12.6v, so there is no chance that the 12 volt fridge will flatten the vehicle starting battery. As I am not home for long periods and do a lot of bush camping, I use the smart charger when i am home to bring the battery voltage and charge up far faster than the SETEC which is limited to 10 amps. The solar panels are portable type (180w and 80w) which have the regulators on the back of the panels bypassed. Solar output is directly to 20amp PV regulator which enables me to see what is going in at any time and lets me know state of charge - bulk, absorb and float. I realise that when solar panels are on float charge, that voltage automatically reduces to 13.7v and drops to 12.7 with no charge and no load. No problems there. Wiring from my smart charger IS 8mm2 so well within the capacity of charger. Voltage drop on van battery after a few hours at night is not as much when charged with solar or battery charger as it is if charged with Setec at home. Is there any way that the 130 amp van battery can be connected when vehicle is not running as when you stop for a 30 minute break or go for a bush walk for an hour or so. Surly the van battery could handle a discharge of 7 to 10 amps for that short time! It seems such a waste to have it there and not use it. I would not like the fridge connected to my tug start battery. Any more ideas would be appreciated. Thanks

 

[Boots in Action]

Thanks for your response NoWorries. The wiring on my Jayco Penguin draw bar HAS three wires from the anderson plug, and I can trace the heav ones to the fridge connection okay I think the other thinner wire from the positive on the anderson plug must go to the Setec charger which is liomited to 10 amps. It is good to have both of you advise NOT to connect to anderson plug on draw bar.

 

[Axl]

Hi Axl, thanks for confirming my thoughts. Sorry i did not give more info to help. The wiring in my tug vehicle has a VSR which cuts out at 12.6v, so there is no chance that the 12 volt fridge will flatten the vehicle starting battery. As I am not home for long periods and do a lot of bush camping, I use the smart charger when i am home to bring the battery voltage and charge up far faster than the SETEC which is limited to 10 amps. The solar panels are portable type (180w and 80w) which have the regulators on the back of the panels bypassed. Solar output is directly to 20amp PV regulator which enables me to see what is going in at any time and lets me know state of charge - bulk, absorb and float. I realise that when solar panels are on float charge, that voltage automatically reduces to 13.7v and drops to 12.7 with no charge and no load. No problems there. Wiring from my smart charger IS 8mm2 so well within the capacity of charger. Voltage drop on van battery after a few hours at night is not as much when charged with solar or battery charger as it is if charged with Setec at home. Is there any way that the 130 amp van battery can be connected when vehicle is not running as when you stop for a 30 minute break or go for a bush walk for an hour or so. Surly the van battery could handle a discharge of 7 to 10 amps for that short time! It seems such a waste to have it there and not use it. I would not like the fridge connected to my tug start battery. Any more ideas would be appreciated. Thanks

Sounds like you are all over it @Boots in Action, as you have said the smart charger will certainly boost the battery quicker than the Setec and your solar set up will supply ample power when the sun is shining. I only have a set of 120w panels and one 120amp AGM this set will run my Expanda and a 40lt Engel for around 5 days before I am getting near the magic 12v mark on the battery in the mornings.

As pointed out 8mm2 will handle the power loads you are talking about but with that size wire anything over say a two meter run will develop voltage drop very quickly. If I took my tug to an autolec and he wired a Anderson plug from the battery to the rear of my car using 8mm2 I wouldn't pay him for the work, the voltage drop would be huge. You need to go to 6B&S once you get over 2-3 meters.

The 90lt three way fridges are very power hungry when running on 12v, they will pull around 16amps so for an hour this shouldn't be a problem and as you have pointed out your VSR will cut out anyway. The 12v option is there only to maintain the temp of the fridge when traveling it wont cool so the least time on 12v the better, as soon as you stop when free camping get it going on gas and all will be good.

I have no idea what the thinner wire would be there for, maybe someone who knows will come along soon.

 

[Boots in Action]

Thanks for the info on what 3 way fridges draw in amps. I did not think they were that high. I take your advice that the 12 volt system is really only a temporary expedient to maintain the "coolness" in the fridge and I certainly get the fridge on gas asap when bush camping. As for the wiring and thickness, I will take your hint and check the voltage available at the fridge connection point in the van itself. My multimeter will provide the whole story on voltage drop from VSR in vehicle to that point. I will let you know how I go. Thanks again for clearing up some of the points that were in doubt for me.

 

[mikerezny]

I have no idea what the thinner wire would be there for, maybe someone who knows will come along soon.

Hi,
it is possible that the thinner black wire is connected to the AUX input of the SETEC, When connected to your tug, it will charge the van battery via an isolating diode. However, for this to happen, the battery switch must be ON, otherwise it will only trickle charge.

If you don't have a manual for the SETEC, it is available online:
http://www.setec.com.au/pdf/ST-Series-User-Manual.pdf

Figure 1 shows this quite clearly and connecting an external 12V source (your tug) is explained quite clearly later in the manual.

In a normal Jayco setup, this wire goes to pin 2 of the 12-pin plug which is wired to +12V in your tug.

Note that both the Jayco wiring and the Setec manual stress that this must be connected to your tug via a 20A fuse.

In your setup, this is unlikely since it is connected directly to the tug battery to run the fridge.
IMHO, I would add a 20A inline fuse in this wire otherwise you may damage the Setec when youconnect to your tug if your van battery is at a low state of charge.

I kept the standard wiring with everything via the 12-pin plug, so the black wire is on pin 2 and picks up 12V from the tug via a 20A fuse. In my Falcon, it comes this way as standard.

cheers
Mike

 

[Drover]

Have to agree with the others, I found the Setek to keep my old rigs battery charged quite well, after you disconnect your charger check your battery after about 20 mins you will find it's no where near 14v once it settles . My rig just runs on panels even when on 240 as I very rarely turn on the 25amp Projecta charger and I hardly ever see the charge rate above 6 amp..
I would never run the fridge off the van battery, it will suck power out that may not get replaced before you set up camp, a worry if you free camp besides they kill batteries very quickly, I have just set up a relay that shuts off power when the ignition is off, easy fix.

I have kept the regulator on my portable panel that way it is really portable and can hook up to van battery or Ute aux battery to charge up, my plugs can also be used as a charging point or to run power to other units as they hook directly to the battery......it can also hook straight up to the Ute's main battery when it dies suddenly and needs charging.

 

[Boots in Action]

Hi,
it is possible that the thinner black wire is connected to the AUX input of the SETEC, When connected to your tug, it will charge the van battery via an isolating diode. However, for this to happen, the battery switch must be ON, otherwise it will only trickle charge.

If you don't have a manual for the SETEC, it is available online:
http://www.setec.com.au/pdf/ST-Series-User-Manual.pdf

Figure 1 shows this quite clearly and connecting an external 12V source (your tug) is explained quite clearly later in the manual.

In a normal Jayco setup, this wire goes to pin 2 of the 12-pin plug which is wired to +12V in your tug.

Note that both the Jayco wiring and the Setec manual stress that this must be connected to your tug via a 20A fuse.

In your setup, this is unlikely since it is connected directly to the tug battery to run the fridge.
IMHO, I would add a 20A inline fuse in this wire otherwise you may damage the Setec when youconnect to your tug if your van battery is at a low state of charge.

I kept the standard wiring with everything via the 12-pin plug, so the black wire is on pin 2 and picks up 12V from the tug via a 20A fuse. In my Falcon, it comes this way as standard.

cheers
Mike

 

[Boots in Action]

Hello Mike, great to hear your thoughts. It now starts to make more sense as to why the Setec will only achieve 14.05v at the battery as any charge current from my tug vehicle has to pass through a power diode and loses approx 0.65v in doing so. Yes, the diode DOES prevent any unwanted power/voltage reversing to the tug system, but it comes at a price. My AGM van battery lists cyclic voltage for bulk charge as 14.7, float voltage as 13.8v and resting voltage as 12.8 to 13.0v. Picked up all this battery stuff from a web site Australiandirect.com.au, about 20 pages of good guts on batteries and charging. That is why I get better charge into van battery by using my 7 stage "smart" charger. It will take the battery up to 14.7 volts in bulk charge, then change to absorb charge for a longer time before dropping back to the float charge stage - only can be done with a "smart" charger to protect battery. My solar regulator does the same. All this started because a caravan repair shop said that using a battery charger to charge van battery instead of the slower Setec would damage the Setec (burn it out). As the responses have exposed, the solar panels already charge the battery directly and a properly connected (across the battery) smart charger with safety fuse in line will do a better job than the in-built Setec. I hope everyone can see what i was concerned about. Any further issues are most welcome. Thanks for the warning also about using frige on battery whilst stopped too.

 

[Boots in Action]

Sounds like you are all over it @Boots in Action, as you have said the smart charger will certainly boost the battery quicker than the Setec and your solar set up will supply ample power when the sun is shining. I only have a set of 120w panels and one 120amp AGM this set will run my Expanda and a 40lt Engel for around 5 days before I am getting near the magic 12v mark on the battery in the mornings.

As pointed out 8mm2 will handle the power loads you are talking about but with that size wire anything over say a two meter run will develop voltage drop very quickly. If I took my tug to an autolec and he wired a Anderson plug from the battery to the rear of my car using 8mm2 I wouldn't pay him for the work, the voltage drop would be huge. You need to go to 6B&S once you get over 2-3 meters.

The 90lt three way fridges are very power hungry when running on 12v, they will pull around 16amps so for an hour this shouldn't be a problem and as you have pointed out your VSR will cut out anyway. The 12v option is there only to maintain the temp of the fridge when traveling it wont cool so the least time on 12v the better, as soon as you stop when free camping get it going on gas and all will be good.

I have no idea what the thinner wire would be there for, maybe someone who knows will come along soon.

 

[Boots in Action]

Hi Axl, I forgot to thank you for your State of Charge colour print out. It will come in handy as my solar reg and my independent volt meter only show voltage and not state of charge remaining. However, it may be that that chart is for "flooded" or "maintenence free" batteries and not for the later type "AGM" or "GEL" batteries. One has to be careful what battery you are using as the recommended charge voltage for AGM is 14.7v and float is 13.8. The voltages for "GEL" batteries are much lower - 14.1v bulk/absorb charge and the float voltage is only 13.3v. So be careful and make sure your smart charger is set for the correct type of battery if you use your Projecta charger at any time to get more out of your battery. Good Luck!!!

 

[Boots in Action]

Have to agree with the others, I found the Setek to keep my old rigs battery charged quite well, after you disconnect your charger check your battery after about 20 mins you will find it's no where near 14v once it settles . My rig just runs on panels even when on 240 as I very rarely turn on the 25amp Projecta charger and I hardly ever see the charge rate above 6 amp..
I would never run the fridge off the van battery, it will suck power out that may not get replaced before you set up camp, a worry if you free camp besides they kill batteries very quickly, I have just set up a relay that shuts off power when the ignition is off, easy fix.

I have kept the regulator on my portable panel that way it is really portable and can hook up to van battery or Ute aux battery to charge up, my plugs can also be used as a charging point or to run power to other units as they hook directly to the battery......it can also hook straight up to the Ute's main battery when it dies suddenly and needs charging.

Hello Drover, I can understand your versatility in keeping the regulator on the back of your solar panels. It does mean it is truly portable. My situation was that I had two different panels (1 x 180w and 1 x 80w) and wanted to be able to use both at once. This meant bypassing the regs on the back of the panels, joining both cables together into one line and connecting the cable to a single (and better) regulator in the van, which has LED readouts for voltage, amps incoming, how much generated that day etc. I do not have to go out to the panel to get down and check what was happening. If two panels are connected into the same line, the individual regs tend to compete with each other. As my van battery is inconveniently placed under the bed of my van, it would be a pain to have to connect the solar panels to the battery that way. That is why I have an outside anderson plug for connecting the solar panels to the regulator inside. However, I still maintain the ability to charge other batteries as I can connect a spare cable (with clamps on one end and an anderson plug on the other) to my 12v battery charging inlet line which is connected across the van battery terminals, effectively charging both batteries in parallel. Slower than your setup, but quite workable.
Yes, the Setec is easy to use and pain free. However, with a terminal voltage of only 14.05v, it will never FULLY charge your AGM batteries as they like an absorption voltage of around 14.7 volts.(Refer Australiandirect.com.au batteries and charging guide page 5). Have a read of that if desired. That is why your multi stage Projecta charger will put more into your batteries than the SETEC. If you are in a position to connect your "smart" charger, the only trouble is running a cable and keeping the charger out of the weather, not always possible everywhere you go. I can do it at home where there is some security, but would not recommend it in other places. Your advice about NOT running fridge off van battery is noted. Thanks.

Happy camping!!

 

[Boots in Action]

Hi,
it is possible that the thinner black wire is connected to the AUX input of the SETEC, When connected to your tug, it will charge the van battery via an isolating diode. However, for this to happen, the battery switch must be ON, otherwise it will only trickle charge.

If you don't have a manual for the SETEC, it is available online:
http://www.setec.com.au/pdf/ST-Series-User-Manual.pdf

Figure 1 shows this quite clearly and connecting an external 12V source (your tug) is explained quite clearly later in the manual.

In a normal Jayco setup, this wire goes to pin 2 of the 12-pin plug which is wired to +12V in your tug.

Note that both the Jayco wiring and the Setec manual stress that this must be connected to your tug via a 20A fuse.

In your setup, this is unlikely since it is connected directly to the tug battery to run the fridge.
IMHO, I would add a 20A inline fuse in this wire otherwise you may damage the Setec when youconnect to your tug if your van battery is at a low state of charge.

I kept the standard wiring with everything via the 12-pin plug, so the black wire is on pin 2 and picks up 12V from the tug via a 20A fuse. In my Falcon, it comes this way as standard.

cheers
Mike

 

[Boots in Action]

Hi Mikerezny, Thanks for confirming what I thought was the case. Can now move on with more confidence. There are only the two heavy wires connected to the fridge from the tug vehicle, and the other thinner black one DOES go to the SETEC as you said to charge van battery whilst on the move. The fridge is NOT connected to the SETEC in any way nor are the heavy cables linked to the van battery. As you said, all power for fridge comes from the tug vehicle via a 20 amp in line fuse. My setup uses a 7 pin connector for everything vehicular on van and a separate anderson plug for the fridge and SETEC. Your advice regarding battery isolation switch always being "on" to get full current to SETEC is kindly noted. Thanks.
It is great to have someone to confer with on a lot of these matters.

 

[Boots in Action]

Hello Drover, I can understand your versatility in keeping the regulator on the back of your solar panels. It does mean it is truly portable. My situation was that I had two different panels (1 x 180w and 1 x 80w) and wanted to be able to use both at once. This meant bypassing the regs on the back of the panels, joining both cables together into one line and connecting the cable to a single (and better) regulator in the van, which has LED readouts for voltage, amps incoming, how much generated that day etc. I do not have to go out to the panel to get down and check what was happening. If two panels are connected into the same line, the individual regs tend to compete with each other. As my van battery is inconveniently placed under the bed of my van, it would be a pain to have to connect the solar panels to the battery that way. That is why I have an outside anderson plug for connecting the solar panels to the regulator inside. However, I still maintain the ability to charge other batteries as I can connect a spare cable (with clamps on one end and an anderson plug on the other) to my 12v battery charging inlet line which is connected across the van battery terminals, effectively charging both batteries in parallel. Slower than your setup, but quite workable.
Yes, the Setec is easy to use and pain free. However, with a terminal voltage of only 14.05v, it will never FULLY charge your AGM batteries as they like an absorption voltage of around 14.7 volts.(Refer Australiandirect.com.au batteries and charging guide page 5). Have a read of that if desired. That is why your multi stage Projecta charger will put more into your batteries than the SETEC. If you are in a position to connect your "smart" charger, the only trouble is running a cable and keeping the charger out of the weather, not always possible everywhere you go. I can do it at home where there is some security, but would not recommend it in other places. Your advice about NOT running fridge off van battery is noted. Thanks.

Happy camping!!

 

[Boots in Action]

Sorry Drover, I accidentally added my reply to your original message. So sorry, but inexperienced in this forum. If you can move it out of your thread, that would be good as I would not want to ruin your reputation for something you did not write.
Silly me!!

 

[mikerezny]

Hi Mikerezny, Thanks for confirming what I thought was the case. Can now move on with more confidence. There are only the two heavy wires connected to the fridge from the tug vehicle, and the other thinner black one DOES go to the SETEC as you said to charge van battery whilst on the move. The fridge is NOT connected to the SETEC in any way nor are the heavy cables linked to the van battery. As you said, all power for fridge comes from the tug vehicle via a 20 amp in line fuse. My setup uses a 7 pin connector for everything vehicular on van and a separate anderson plug for the fridge and SETEC. Your advice regarding battery isolation switch always being "on" to get full current to SETEC is kindly noted. Thanks.
It is great to have someone to confer with on a lot of these matters.

Hi Boots in Action,
happy to be of some assistance. We are the proud owners of a 2106 Penguin which we bought new in November last year.
So it is good to have someone else on this forum with a Penguin.

Our 12V setup is much much simpler than yours. 100Ah GEL battery fitted as an option from Jayco. I would have preferred an AGM but having it fitted at the factory meant the about 40kg weight of the battery is included in the Tare and does not come off the 300kg personal allowance.

Only draw on the 12V are lights, a fridge fan, stove ignition, and sometimes a small fan or a NiMh battery charger.

I have no problem keeping the battery charged via the vehicle when towing, a 40W portable solar panel, and a couple of hours on the SETEC when we are packing up to leave (Only reason for this is to give the fridge a couple of hours on 240V to check it works and to do a little pre-cooling before stocking it up).

We bought a device the R/C people use that keeps track of watts, voltage and current and accumulated Ah and Watts. This is connected between the Solar regulator and the battery. Our usage is less than 2Ah per day and the 40W panel restores this easily in less than 2 hours. I usually keep the panel connected for longer to float the battery.

When in storage, I usually connect up the panel once a week for a few hours.

cheers
Mike

 

[Dobbie]

Sorry Drover, I accidentally added my reply to your original message. So sorry, but inexperienced in this forum. If you can move it out of your thread, that would be good as I would not want to ruin your reputation for something you did not write.
Silly me!!

Don't worry about @Drover ....he's responsible for many digressions as well.

He can take it on the chin.

Re 12v (just to prove I can keep to a topic). ....our new setup is working brilliantly with two 125 AGMs controlled by Projecta 25 amp charger and Projecta DC to DC for solar. We had the extra Anderson wired directly to the battery but the onboard 120 w panel has kept it all ticking over well. Haven't had to use the portable panel, with its own regulator, at all.

The next few days will be a good test...bucketing rain, no sun at all and an unpowered site. All in the interests of testing it out.