2nd car for towing/4WD - recommendations

[Fallen]

Hi all,

Finally jumped in and bought a panda after borrowing and hiring for a few years. We've used our one and only car to-date for our trips but fed up with having to be the idiots who push the limits of an SUV on the beach etc. Luckily we always go with family with proper 4WD who don't mind pulling us out!

So looking for a 2nd car as a dedicated tug. There's 5 of us (2 adults, 3 kids under 7). We bought a 2015 20.64-1 OB so need to tow up to 3100kg. As we already have a full size SUV daily, I was thinking of going for a dual cab ute with removable fibreglass canopy. That way I have a DIY workhorse when not a tug. Plus it's nice and light for beach work. We won't be loading up the tray when towing, just a fridge and not much else.

Thinking of a second hand Isuzu D-Max with around 80k on the clock. They seem very common tugs and well made with a generally rock solid engine. I'll make sure it has suitable tires and suspension for bad roads and beach.

Thoughts on this logic?

 

[Boots in Action]

Hi all,

Finally jumped in and bought a panda after borrowing and hiring for a few years. We've used our one and only car to-date for our trips but fed up with having to be the idiots who push the limits of an SUV on the beach etc. Luckily we always go with family with proper 4WD who don't mind pulling us out!

So looking for a 2nd car as a dedicated tug. There's 5 of us (2 adults, 3 kids under 7). We bought a 2015 20.64-1 OB so need to tow up to 3100kg. As we already have a full size SUV daily, I was thinking of going for a dual cab ute with removable fibreglass canopy. That way I have a DIY workhorse when not a tug. Plus it's nice and light for beach work. We won't be loading up the tray when towing, just a fridge and not much else.

Thinking of a second hand Isuzu D-Max with around 80k on the clock. They seem very common tugs and well made with a generally rock solid engine. I'll make sure it has suitable tires and suspension for bad roads and beach.

Thoughts on this logic?

Hi @Fallen , I have a dual cab Colorado, 2011 model which has the Isuzu 3 litre motor (turbo charged). It also has a fibre glass canopy with lift up tail gate window and lift up windows at the sides. I am only towing a Penguin weighing approx 1300kg when loaded and there is only two of us. Bought it 5 years ago with 72K on the clock. Now has 146k after 5 years of general use and towing and have found it easily does the job and is reliable too. Yes, I can take off the Canopy, but find it very useful for carrying things around under cover and secure too, so not likely to take it off. Fits all my extra stuff when I go camping that I do not want in van - extra fridge, drinks, and firewood if necessary. Good as a regular vehicle as the dual cab allows me to carry my two grand-children when necessary. My vehicle is rated to tow 3.0 tonne and has reasonable limited capacity for a fair load in the back of tug because van weight is down. Just watch your GCM (total of tug weight, plus load in tug (including passengers) and van. It is easy to go over the limit when you add gas bottles, water, and extra articles in van. Below is a picture of my tug and van. A comparison of vehicles and their load carrying capacities according to ARB Queensland can be found on my post # 1 18th June, 2019 Tow Vehicle Comparisons according to ARB Queensland! Copy attached for your info.

#1
Recently I attended the monster Caravan/camping Show in Brisbane and just happened to enter into the ARB display where I found the attached table of current vehicles' load and towing capacities compared. I was rather shocked to read some of the stats and even called over the expert there to explain a few things to me.

The ranking for Vehicle Only is pretty straight forward to follow - Gross combined mass (total of everything together) minus gross vehicle mass (weight of your tug loaded) minus the kerb weight of your tug (empty but with all standard fittings included) leaves you with the payload that you can legally place in tug. The 79 Series wins this with an available payload of 1125 kgs just ahead of the BT-50 with 1096 kgs.

The ranking for vehicles At Max Tow Capacity is also easy to follow : Gross combined mass as per top comparison minus Tow capacity if reached ( the max weight that your tug is rated to tow) minus Gross vehicle mass remaining (reduced from comparison in top column) , minus the Kerb Mass (the same as top column same figures) leaves you with the reduced payload you can place in your tug. Once again, the 79 Series comes out on top with 1125 kgs still available whilst the Defender is a close second with 1078 kgs avaliable. The BT-50 is way behind now at only 396 kgs and the Colorado a long way last with only 57 kgs available!

The last comparison had me beat for a while until I was advised that the weight of passenger/s is calculated at 47 kgs each , but each passenger has an luggage allowance of 15 kgs (total of 62 kgs per passenger!!). I guess this makes allowances for children (or small adults?) So, to NOT use up your payload, get rid of the kids and their luggage!

In reading the comparisons in the last columns, they work on the max passengers plus the STANDARD fuel tank capacity/weight plus average ball weight of your loaded van (300 kgs seems heavy, but they do say it does not alter the rankings). The Defender tops the class with 412 kgs still available and the 79 Series a close second with still room for 403 kgs. 13 out of the 17 would be OVERLOADED by anything from 11 kgs (200 GXL) to 602 kgs (Colorado) and that is with only 5 passengers included.
So every time you add that extra bit of weight - bull bar, long ran
ge fuel tank, roof racks, light bars and winches, it will affect something. If you have only two persons and are not carrying passengers, you gain 186 kgs of extra capacity to cover some of your extras fitted. But when you add your OWN weight plus that of an adult passenger, most of us are going to eat up more load capacity by being over the 62 kgs EACH allowed for in the calculations.

This should make interesting reading for a lot of forum members with heavily loaded vans and tugs. But as the comparison sheet states:

DON'T KILL THE MESSENGER!!!..........Please

 

[Fallen]

Thanks BiA. Yes I did forget to mention that I liked the Dmax's payload specs as well. Based on that handy lookup of yours, I'd be looking at a payload of around 700kg taking into consideration the van and towball weight. So as long as I don't go silly with protection plates and huge bull bars etc I will be fine (at least until the kids are adult weight!)

 

[Axl]

Hi all,

Finally jumped in and bought a panda after borrowing and hiring for a few years. We've used our one and only car to-date for our trips but fed up with having to be the idiots who push the limits of an SUV on the beach etc. Luckily we always go with family with proper 4WD who don't mind pulling us out!

So looking for a 2nd car as a dedicated tug. There's 5 of us (2 adults, 3 kids under 7). We bought a 2015 20.64-1 OB so need to tow up to 3100kg. As we already have a full size SUV daily, I was thinking of going for a dual cab ute with removable fibreglass canopy. That way I have a DIY workhorse when not a tug. Plus it's nice and light for beach work. We won't be loading up the tray when towing, just a fridge and not much else.

Thinking of a second hand Isuzu D-Max with around 80k on the clock. They seem very common tugs and well made with a generally rock solid engine. I'll make sure it has suitable tires and suspension for bad roads and beach.

Thoughts on this logic?

Hi @Fallen I brought a new D-max for a tow vehicle last year, mine is a 2017 LSM crew cab with a 2018 build date. First thing I did was had the OEM suspension ripped out and replaced with 500kg Fulcrum constants on the rear and mid range Kings springs on the front. The OEM suspension even from brand new was rubbish.

I realised pretty quickly that fully loaded with the mods I had done to the tug (alloy canopy, alloy bull bar, side steps and a heavy duty Hayman Reece tow bar) I was going to exceed the GVM of 2950kg not buy much but I new I would. After doing a bit of research I found out my suspension upgrade allowed me to get a GVM upgrade of 295kg which was enough for my set up. Now I have no issues with my tug weights when towing but my Expanda only weighs 2.1t.

Pedders offer a GVM upgrade of 600kg but you will pay around $4000 for that where as my upgrade cost $2700, fully loaded and with the vans ball weight my tug weighs around 3050kg so with my current GVM of 3245kg I'm within my limits.

I personally would not want 3.1t behind my D-max, whilst I believe the tug could handle it as you have said they are pretty much bullet proof I reckon 3.1t is to much for any of the utes on the market at the moment unless you went with something like the Dodge Ram.

Whilst the figures above for the D-max are close they are not entirely correct, as you mentioned you will have around 700kg to spare but you will find you will chew that up really quick with a family of 5 putting you extremely close to the limits.

I would be looking at a 200 series at a minimum to tow that sort of weight even then depending on accessories you put on you still may struggle, maybe have a look around for a decent second hand F250, Dodge Ram or Chevy Silverado.

 

[Drover]

D Max is a good vehicle but for towing a van with a 3.1t limit , which you will find easy to get it to that weight and harder to be below as its probably near it before you load, the D Max with bums, bags and full fuel will be very close to GCM, it wouldn't matter which dual cab you picked they are all similar for the weight factor............... It will do it fine but just watch your loading if being legal weight is a concern.
As its 2nd hand go over the thing and change all fluids and filters even if the book is stamped, then you know its done .... My Jeep had all 4 services stamped (40K) when I got it 1,200kms after the last and I found the fuel filters looked like an oil filter, everything got changed....

I did find that comparison table interesting even if it did have some figures that differed to my old RG Colorado's, the Jeep is about right but then its a good tower with just bums on seats, though it does carry 92lts of fuel and with only 62kgs per person I can imagine a few vehicles being over with just the driver and mum onboard, looking at when my daughter loads up her kids, a kid including car seat would be near 50kgs, those seats weigh a ton.

 

[BJM]

Other things to be taken into account should be braking capability,ie most utes still have drum rears,engine size,etc etc plus common sense.GVM upgrades might appear to be ok however what extra stress then is put on other vehicle components.

 

[Boots in Action]

Hi @Fallen I brought a new D-max for a tow vehicle last year, mine is a 2017 LSM crew cab with a 2018 build date. First thing I did was had the OEM suspension ripped out and replaced with 500kg Fulcrum constants on the rear and mid range Kings springs on the front. The OEM suspension even from brand new was rubbish.

I realised pretty quickly that fully loaded with the mods I had done to the tug (alloy canopy, alloy bull bar, side steps and a heavy duty Hayman Reece tow bar) I was going to exceed the GVM of 2950kg not buy much but I new I would. After doing a bit of research I found out my suspension upgrade allowed me to get a GVM upgrade of 295kg which was enough for my set up. Now I have no issues with my tug weights when towing but my Expanda only weighs 2.1t.

Pedders offer a GVM upgrade of 600kg but you will pay around $4000 for that where as my upgrade cost $2700, fully loaded and with the vans ball weight my tug weighs around 3050kg so with my current GVM of 3245kg I'm within my limits.

I personally would not want 3.1t behind my D-max, whilst I believe the tug could handle it as you have said they are pretty much bullet proof I reckon 3.1t is to much for any of the utes on the market at the moment unless you went with something like the Dodge Ram.

Whilst the figures above for the D-max are close they are not entirely correct, as you mentioned you will have around 700kg to spare but you will find you will chew that up really quick with a family of 5 putting you extremely close to the limits.

I would be looking at a 200 series at a minimum to tow that sort of weight even then depending on accessories you put on you still may struggle, maybe have a look around for a decent second hand F250, Dodge Ram or Chevy Silverado.

A very good explanation and recommendation there @Axl.

 

[Fallen]

Great info all, thanks. I'm trying not to get a big vehicle but understand it may come with the territory when towing 3.1T. Can't believe a lot of these utes still use drum brakes on the back? I'll carefully do my sums and get the van over a weighbridge to check before I make a call. And for sure, will get any 2nd hand car fully serviced upon receipt.

I'm also a little concerned how the D-max engine will handle the 3.1T. It's 130kW and 430Nm. @Axl - I take it you don't have any problems with power on yours with the lighter van?

I towed a 2013 Expanda 18.57-9 full height (non-OB) with my current tug and that was a breeze. But that van is only around 2.5T ATM with tug specs of 190kW and 560Nm.

 

[Boots in Action]

Great info all, thanks. I'm trying not to get a big vehicle but understand it may come with the territory when towing 3.1T. Can't believe a lot of these utes still use drum brakes on the back? I'll carefully do my sums and get the van over a weighbridge to check before I make a call. And for sure, will get any 2nd hand car fully serviced upon receipt.

I'm also a little concerned how the D-max engine will handle the 3.1T. It's 130kW and 430Nm. @Axl - I take it you don't have any problems with power on yours with the lighter van?

I towed a 2013 Expanda 18.57-9 full height (non-OB) with my current tug and that was a breeze. But that van is only around 2.5T ATM with tug specs of 190kW and 560Nm.

Hi @Fallen , yes some 4WD vehicles do have only drum brakes at the rear and power assisted disc brakes at the front, definitely not as good as discs all round, but still satisfactory for most uses, unless over using brakes all the time. However when being pushed along by over 3 tonne, it is not the tug's job to stop the tug/van combo on its own! Generally, the tug can capably do its own job, but the 3 tonne plus van pushing behind has to do its own braking as well - all with electric drum brakes. That only becomes a real problem when the van weighs more than the tug - "tail wagging the dog" so to speak. And any vanner who relies purely on brakes instead of using ALL available gears (auto or manual) when descending steep or long grades needs to ask themselves about getting a licence for towing.
@Axl will be able to answer questions on towing capabilities of Dmax towing his van and his thoughts on handling at least 600kgs more load.

 

[Axl]

Great info all, thanks. I'm trying not to get a big vehicle but understand it may come with the territory when towing 3.1T. Can't believe a lot of these utes still use drum brakes on the back? I'll carefully do my sums and get the van over a weighbridge to check before I make a call. And for sure, will get any 2nd hand car fully serviced upon receipt.

I'm also a little concerned how the D-max engine will handle the 3.1T. It's 130kW and 430Nm. @Axl - I take it you don't have any problems with power on yours with the lighter van?

I towed a 2013 Expanda 18.57-9 full height (non-OB) with my current tug and that was a breeze. But that van is only around 2.5T ATM with tug specs of 190kW and 560Nm.

@Fallen I have a 1.8t 17ft fiberglass boat and my Expanda weighs 2.1t the D-max pulls these no worries but it certainly knows they are there. The boat follows a lot better than the big square box and it is a bit lighter so the D-max certainly handles it better.

I hate hearing people say "it doesn't even know its there" all of the modern utes would know they have 2t behind them, I also have a 4.1m tinny I take to Burrum Heads twice a year and whilst its breeze to tow (weighing maybe 350kg-400kg) you can still fell its there.

The first time I hooked the van up I was disappointed at the way the D-max took off from the lights but I've got used to it as you mentioned it is certainly down in the kW/Nm compared to others on the market, 3.1t is going to be a stretch in my opinion but in saying that I've never experienced it before.

If you are on Face Book have a look at this group https://www.facebook.com/groups/780594192021440/ there are many on there that use MUX's and D-max's to tow vans of your size and they rate them highly.

 

[Bluey]

Havent read all comments but my 2 cents i could have brought a brand new ute but decided not not due to a few things i have a 1756=2 outback
1st small motors what happened to a good v6 deisal compaired to 3 litre so motor is allways working very hard towing i know they can like this but little motors dont like any climbs towing .and tweaking the motors to try to give the the power they are lacking ....
2nd lightweight cars most ute weigh less than my van not ideal on small weekends away the tub would be empty again not ideal
3rd room for kids in the back all utes are not that great in the back seat wize and room
After towing with my prado for 4 years it did ok but working overtime and hills killed it .....it towed the weight very good but not ideal realy just not enough power and it weighed allmost same as van ......
So the only choise i could make was a 2.7 tonne 2014 GX landcruiser 200 get same figures towing as prado but dose it easy blast past anything no hill has slowed me down it was the safest choise for me real power heavy car
Only thing may need a gvm upgrade but realy not many cars now dont need one now once loaded up
The hole set up feels right and as safe as i can be

 

[BJM]

Just remember new utes are still bending chassis.Tow 3.5 tons of caravan with a ute and I guarantee the ute tub will not align up parallel with the back of the cab after a years travelling.There will be a wider gap at the top than the bottom of the tub.This means chassis stress! I agree with Bluey no substitute for cubic inches.Less stress ,better engine braking etc.

 

[Drover]

Haven't heard or seen a Colorado with a bent chassis nor a D Max but anyhow with an auto you won't have any trouble with the engine towing your van, my son in law has a few of them for his business and they tow tool trailers with the tray full of gear day in day out and not always city style they do runs to Barky and places, the engines never miss a beat...... Just remember when pushing it hard up hills and long drags to go manual in the auto, change down early and keep the revs right to manage auto temps, its the high temps in the auto's that kill tug gear boxes.
Kw, Nm and HP are very much like tare weight, don't make a judgement call on those figures because they are only there on the rollers not when your on the road, twin turbos and other add ons just mean the engine is too small and they need to push it. Cubic inches, now that shows if an engine has grunt, nothing like a nice V8...
You will have to be careful loading, no extra boxes on draw bar or other junk or you will most certainly pop the scales..

My old Colorado with its 2.8lt oil burner and 6 speed dragged big Mal, 2.8t everywhere with no lack of power or meltdowns, hills like the Snowys did require good match of revs to gears to keep trans temps to a nice 98 deg and while a bigger engine would have been nice it was okay.... While the engine and auto is different than the D Max the rest is the same...................... The Jeep leaves it for dead in towing though.......

Personally, I find a dual cab (3.5t tow cap) should only have a van with an ATM of 2.9t max behind it then you have a bit of leeway from hitting GCM, towing at the max is not really ideal, anything over and the tug needs to be close to empty as its stated tare is BS just like the vans.

 

[Andre307]

I have a MUX with the same drivetrain and wouldn’t recommend it for a setup that big/heavy. My van is around 2.5 - 2.6 loaded and car is at GVM with a few mods and find that I wouldn’t want to go heavier.

If you’re towing with 190kw/560nm now I think you will be dissatisfied unless you are happy with struggling on hills/acceleration and not being able to overtake slower vehicles.

On my recent trip to NT/WA the issue I had was the 3 trailer road trains were a nightmare to overtake even on the flat. Rest of the time my setup was fine and performed well with some hills down to 85 from 100 on the steeper/windy scale.

I agree with others here that although technically it would do it, it’s unlikely to be enjoyable unless you don’t mind going slow.

 

[Drover]

Just how fast do people want to go dragging a caravan ???

 

[Bluey]

Just how fast do people want to go dragging a caravan ???

I think its only fair to the truckies who live on the road that any combination should be able to cruise nicely at 100 slowing down to 85 or 70 going up hills upsets them a bit and rightly so although the big hills kill them too evan the nomads out there cruiseing at 80 to save fule is wrong i reckon it makes many unsafe situations trucks and car and me trying to get around them all we want to do @Drover is 100......110

 

[Boots in Action]

I think its only fair to the truckies who live on the road that any combination should be able to cruise nicely at 100 slowing down to 85 or 70 going up hills upsets them a bit and rightly so although the big hills kill them too evan the nomads out there cruiseing at 80 to save fule is wrong i reckon it makes many unsafe situations trucks and car and me trying to get around them all we want to do @Drover is 100......110

@Bluey , it is not the fact that they may only want to travel at 80 kms or so, especially if struggling to carry/tow heavy loads, it is the fact that they do not keep an eye on their rear view mirror and move over at the first opportunity to let the truckies/other non towing vehicles) overtake them. Awareness and courtesy avoids many a potential accident.

 

[Andre307]

@Bluey Exactly the case for me. Fast enough to avoid annoying the traffic and the trucks I.e. around 100. I see way too many risky overtaking manoeuvres and don’t want to encourage them.
That said, towing a caravan seems to attract overtakers no matter what speed you’re doing. The worst are those that do it and then slow to a speed less than you were doing originally forcing you to slow down and reset the Cruise control...
Anyway, don’t want to ruin the OP’s topic.

 

[Fallen]

Interesting comments. I did like having the option to overtake relatively easily with the 2.5T behind the SUV, so that will be something to consider. Particularly since we're in WA and there's heaps of road trains here. Plus having to be more careful re loading, engine revs (although I already do this), and potential chassis stress. And less room in the 2nd row as the kids get bigger...

But I'm not looking to load up the tub much at all - surely that is the main reason for chassis bending?

The thought of 2 big cars in the garage just makes me want to look at other options.

 

[BJM]

Just remember you can be fined for not doing the speed limit in NSW.! Next door neighbor was most indignant a couple of months ago when stopped by the police for doing 80 in a hundred zone.Police told him if seen again going slow he would get a ticket.Dont know if being a Vic had anything to do with it! I tow my 16.55 Journey Outback with the 2010 Grand Cherokee 3 l diesel at 100kph .Does it easily,stops on a dime ,tracks like on rails.Easily handles most hills ,plus engine breaking really good downhill .Get out at the end of the day ,no white knucles.My mate 2 years ago bought a new Ranger plus a new large Silverline it used to frighten him that much he was scared to take it out.Also when taking into towing performance ,towing a block of flats isnt too aerodynamic as many find out too late.